Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34

Thread: Xts3000 conventional astro Talkgroups

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 01, 2012
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Xts3000 conventional astro Talkgroups

    In an older Xts3000 I programmed a small 5 channel 3600 bps mixed mode trunked system as conventional. 90% of the traffic is digital so I just programmed the 4 voice channels as astro mode & made up a scan list with just the 4 channels. As far as following the conversation it does a pretty good job. I enabled the TG "display on receive" under the display & menu section. As long as you are monitoring one of the channels, The TG ID is displayed, but when scanning, no ID is ever displayed. Is there a way to have it display a TG ID while scanning? Thanks, Randy


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 21, 2011
    Posts
    4,131
    Thanks
    2,776
    Thanked 4,931 Times in 1,469 Posts
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Have you tried enabling the Scan ID Display box?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 01, 2012
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    Have you tried enabling the Scan ID Display box?
    Thanks for the reply. Yes, but with that checked, it seems to display the active radio ID rather than the TG ID.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 12, 2012
    Location
    Directly above the center of the earth.
    Posts
    2,541
    Thanks
    550
    Thanked 1,112 Times in 579 Posts
    Country: Christmas Island

    Default

    There's another menu, I think it's in the "General Radio->Display" parameters, or possibly Astro System parameters, there's a "Talkgroups" tab that selects when and how long talkgroups are displayed before the normal caller ID display takes over.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 04, 2012
    Posts
    1,675
    Thanks
    79
    Thanked 372 Times in 193 Posts

    Default

    The place to go is the Advanced tab in Mars's picture. set the Alternating Display Time to 3 seconds or however long you want. Set the Temp Message Display time to 250 ms. Turn off the ID display in the PTT id screen. this should disply the TG info.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 01, 2012
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Notarola View Post
    The place to go is the Advanced tab in Mars's picture. set the Alternating Display Time to 3 seconds or however long you want. Set the Temp Message Display time to 250 ms. Turn off the ID display in the PTT id screen. this should disply the TG info.
    Ok, I set the alternating display time to 3 seconds, the temporary display time to 250 milliseconds, & turned off ID display under the PTT id tab. Now when monitoring any of the channels it displays the the TG for only about 1/4 of a second, so maybe if I set the temporary display to a longer setting that it would be ok, but still when scanning, no ID is ever displayed. Randy

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 04, 2012
    Posts
    1,675
    Thanks
    79
    Thanked 372 Times in 193 Posts

    Default

    If the TG display is 1/4 sec change the Temp Message Display to 3 seconds or what you like. I should have checked on my 3000 first. With scan Id dispaly enabled it should show the Ids in scan. It is possible that there is a firmware issue where the version of firmware you have dosnt support the ID display in scan. I dont think this is the case but ill look into it.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 04, 2012
    Posts
    23
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Notarola View Post
    If the TG display is 1/4 sec change the Temp Message Display to 3 seconds or what you like. I should have checked on my 3000 first. With scan Id dispaly enabled it should show the Ids in scan. It is possible that there is a firmware issue where the version of firmware you have dosnt support the ID display in scan. I dont think this is the case but ill look into it.

    Hi all- my first post here- awesome forum! Im having this same problem on my xts2500. I've enabled id scan and tried a variety of settings to no avail. I would love to have it display talkgroup ids in conventional scan on my p25 system. I am using talkgroup 65535 so it well unmute on all talkgroups but still can't get it to display them. If anyone finds out anything i would love to hear from you! Thanks!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 01, 2012
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Notarola View Post
    If the TG display is 1/4 sec change the Temp Message Display to 3 seconds or what you like. I should have checked on my 3000 first. With scan Id dispaly enabled it should show the Ids in scan. It is possible that there is a firmware issue where the version of firmware you have dosnt support the ID display in scan. I dont think this is the case but ill look into it.
    Host is R04.01.02. Thanks, Randy

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 21, 2011
    Posts
    4,131
    Thanks
    2,776
    Thanked 4,931 Times in 1,469 Posts
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Host R04.01.02 is from 1996-1997. That's 12-year-old firmware. I recommend you get a firmware update. Could be part of the problem.

    If you need a firmware update, I have a few refreshes left on my iButton key. PM me if you're interested.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 01, 2012
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Well I have another one with host R07.71.00, I just tried with the same issue. It displays the TG ID ok until you scan, then it's never displayed. I feel like I'm missing something somewhere. Randy

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 21, 2011
    Posts
    4,131
    Thanks
    2,776
    Thanked 4,931 Times in 1,469 Posts
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Why don't you just program your 3000 with the system key (no one here cares or will give you ****) and use the Conventional scan trick? I use this on my XTS3000 to monitor the exact same type of system you are monitoring, and everything works perfect.

    - No chance of ever transmitting on a talkgroup
    - No chance of your 3000 ever affiliating on the system
    - You get all trunking features such as roaming, talkgroup patching, emergency ID display, multiselect
    - No fuss or hassle.

    If you need any help, send me a PM and I'll gladly help you get your codeplug configured to do proper RX-only trunking.

    Again, no one here is going to suggest you're a criminal for using a system key. Just don't TX on the system.

    If you need the system key for the system you're monitoring, I'll gladly make one for you and send it your way. The instructions for doing so are here: http://www.batlabs.com/syskey

    Again, it is not illegal to monitor a trunking system. Scanners wouldn't exist if that were the case.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Mars For This Useful Post:


  14. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 04, 2012
    Posts
    23
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    Hey guys just my 2 cents. I have a xts2500 and have the system programmed in and do the talkgroup scan trick. Yes it works great! The other thing i do is have the voice channels and scan them conventional in zone two. Why do i do this? It is a relatively new system and i only know a couple talkgroups so when in conventional scan i can use TG 65535 and the radio will unmute on everything on the system. This is handy so that if i hear a talkgroup that i don't have i can log it and try to figure out the usage. The only problem is i can not get it to display the talkgroup number at all! So frustrating! I have heard someone say it will not work in scan only when parked on a channel but i have my doubts. Anyway it does work when not scanning. I use pro96com to log new talkgroups but only the main dispatch channels are used often. last week during a severe weather outbreak i logged 32 new talkgroups which most of them were just people changing thru their channels i think. I have no way to figure out what they belong to that's why i would like to display the talkgroup while in conv scan. Make any sense lol?

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 21, 2011
    Posts
    4,131
    Thanks
    2,776
    Thanked 4,931 Times in 1,469 Posts
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Kind of makes sense, I think?

    I would use a trunking scanner in search mode, or an old POS scanner with discriminator tap/4-level slicer, or 9600-capable scanner with cable/software to log the new 9600 talkgroups. (I don't have any 9600 where I am, so I'm not experienced in what software is available for doing what Trunker or Trunk88 can do on 3600 systems.)

    But yeah...using a good radio like the 2500 or a 5000, to monitor digital trunking, set up properly, works awesome! I can only imagine how frustrating it is to monitor digital talkgroups while scanning the voice channels in conventional mode. Hard to follow conversations on a busy system.

    To each and their own. That's what experimentation is all about. Unfortunately there's been a lot of negative responses and information handed out over the years on sites like batboard and radioreference. People like Bezking, who have no $%$@^%@$#% idea what they're talking about and just parrot what they've read on other sites over the years.

    USE A SCANNER!!!! No thanks. Scanners don't work worth a damn. /Rant

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 04, 2012
    Posts
    23
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    Yea i keep my 396xt hooked up to pro96com control channel decoder most of the time. Like i say i logged 32 new talkgroups the other day. Maybe someone knows more about trunking than i do but would a radio affiliate if they were just switching channels real slow? I know there was not any traffic on these channels except maybe 5 of them so that's what im thinking someone was just going thru the channels in their radio. Which is great for me. I need to get a logging program that will also record the voice as well. It would be nice if the control channel would spit out information on every talkgroup that was on the system without someone affiliating to it. That way we could just turn the decoder on and pop up a list of all available talkgroups. Well i guess i can't have it all just like the rssi and site id.

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 21, 2011
    Posts
    4,131
    Thanks
    2,776
    Thanked 4,931 Times in 1,469 Posts
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Yes, there are a few ways you'll be able to extract new talkgroups from the control channel:

    - Local site affiliation
    - Seeing talkgroup activity on a particular site
    - If "new" talkgroup is part of a patch or multiselect

    Users switching through channels will definitely cause an affiliation, however there's a timer in the radio called "Affiliation holdoff timer", which can be set to cause a set delay before affiliating. This saves battery life and preserves airtime (input of control channel) from getting hammered with unnecessary ISW packets as a user "plays" with the channel knob.

    You're right about RSSI and site ID not being available through the conventional scan method, but that's an OK tradeoff for the fantastic audio and RF performance you'll gain by using your Moto instead of a ****ty scanner.

    One other thing to keep in mind, is you can set up your site preferences in the Moto, so you give preference to a particular site (over others) if there's way more radio traffic on the tower, than say a neighboring tower with similar signal strength.

    I spent the extra time tweaking my MTS2000/XTS3000/XTS5000 codeplugs so they have all the control channels, proper RSSI roaming values (more aggressive roaming) and site preferences. (I also set certain sites to "least preferred".)

    Not to plug retardreference too much here, but perhaps there's some talkgroup information in their database which you can use? But if this is a new system, there might not be much out there yet.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 18, 2012
    Posts
    73
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 14 Times in 12 Posts

    Default

    To each and their own. That's what experimentation is all about. Unfortunately there's been a lot of negative responses and information handed out over the years on sites like batboard and radioreference. People like Bezking, who have no $%$@^%@$#% idea what they're talking about and just parrot what they've read on other sites over the years.

    USE A SCANNER!!!! No thanks. Scanners don't work worth a damn. /Rant

    Amen to that. Scanners dont work worth a damn is putting it nicely!!

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 04, 2012
    Posts
    23
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    Yea i used all the rssi values i found on here except i had to lower the 5A by alot. The radio would not even unmute with it. My county went with a non moto system. Im not sure what to actually call it r but we use mostly kenwood radios. The sites are linked via IP. Im just wondering if it's like smartzone in the aspect that certain talkgroups wont be active on a site unless there is a radio on that site on the talkgroup or if all traffic is simulcasted on all sites except different frequencies. It's a five site with each site having 4-5 channels although i think they have room to expand because i have found additional frequencies for the tower locations licensed but not in use. I guess i will just have to drive close to a remote site with my radio and 396xt and see if the radio missed any traffic.

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 21, 2011
    Posts
    4,131
    Thanks
    2,776
    Thanked 4,931 Times in 1,469 Posts
    Country: Canada

    Default

    To conserve RF and IP resources, a site (generally) won't rebroadcast traffic unless there's a subscriber unit affiliated to it.

    System admins can override this behavior by forcing a talkgroup to broadcast on a site. The benefit to doing that would be for scanners and people using system radios to scan interagency/mutual aid talkgroups.

    Where I live, we have one province-wide talkgroup which is supposed to be used by police/fire/ems to coordinate with each other. Well half the time these people are not on the talkgroup, and when the other agency is calling them, they don't hear it because they're not affiliated to it on the particular site. Then they say "We had it on scan!!!". Well unless the system is configured to rebroadcast, regardless of affiliation, no one will hear it on scan

    We should start a "My system admin is a moron" sub-forum so we can chat about idiotic configuration issues. You can tell I've got a lot of rage built up from over the years :P

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 01, 2012
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    I'm also in kevlars boat. I do have the system programmed as trunked & it does very well, it's a statewide system & you never know what agency you'll hear on it. So I also put it in conventional mode to see what all is active at any given time. It's a shame there isn't a 65535 talkgroup trick for a trunking personality. It's not a big deal, I've been scanning it for a few years now without any type of ID, just recently figured out it was possible. Thanks for all the input guys.

  22. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 04, 2012
    Posts
    1,675
    Thanks
    79
    Thanked 372 Times in 193 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kevlar1307 View Post
    Yea i used all the rssi values i found on here except i had to lower the 5A by alot. The radio would not even unmute with it. My county went with a non moto system. Im not sure what to actually call it r but we use mostly kenwood radios. The sites are linked via IP. Im just wondering if it's like smartzone in the aspect that certain talkgroups wont be active on a site unless there is a radio on that site on the talkgroup or if all traffic is simulcasted on all sites except different frequencies. It's a five site with each site having 4-5 channels although i think they have room to expand because i have found additional frequencies for the tower locations licensed but not in use. I guess i will just have to drive close to a remote site with my radio and 396xt and see if the radio missed any traffic.
    Sounds like a passport system. It works like LTR but the data blocks and TG info is structured differently. If you monitor any of the voice channels in CSQ you should here a momentary keyup.

  23. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 04, 2012
    Posts
    23
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    Hey guys. I've got a question that sort of fits in this topic so I will continue in here and not make another thread. My question: In THEORY if one had Depot software for the Astro25 line could they 'uncheck' the greyed out box for auto affiliate and then use their radio to monitor a TRS without using the talkgroup scan trick from a conventional channel? I don't even know if the depot software will allow you to uncheck a greyed out box since the software is only available at the depots and i've never played around with it. BUT if it was able to do that would the radio be able to be programmed to the TRS without auto affiliate and use it just like a radio that is affiliated to the system and able to select actual channels and get RSSI display and site display etc. or do you think it would not even unmute or even still try to affiliate? Just wondering what everyone thinks about the idea and if anyone has heard of someone else trying it. In the depot of course!

    PS: Is there in fact a depot version higher than 7 and would it have any advantages over 7?

  24. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 21, 2011
    Posts
    4,131
    Thanks
    2,776
    Thanked 4,931 Times in 1,469 Posts
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kevlar1307 View Post
    In THEORY if one had Depot software for the Astro25 line could they 'uncheck' the greyed out box for auto affiliate and then use their radio to monitor a TRS without using the talkgroup scan trick from a conventional channel?
    No, Depot software doesn't allow you to uncheck the auto-affiliate box. But other hacks do allow for the removal of greyed-out boxes. Unfortunately it still won't work.

    There are also other pieces of software -- much more advanced and powerful than Depot, which allow for direct editing of the codeplug partition in active memory. Options not supported/shown in CPS can be enabled/disabled/modified. An example is the enabling of "Soft ID" in the XTS4000. This is a non-CPS/Depot-supported feature. But the radio firmware does support the operation of it.

    The only way to monitor a trunking system, without affiliating, on an ASTRO25 product, is to do the conventional trick. I have tried everything else, and it just doesn't work. And I have access to some pretty neat tools. The firmware doesn't allow for "RX only" trunking, while sitting on a trunking mode.

    PS: Is there in fact a depot version higher than 7 and would it have any advantages over 7?
    Yes. Higher versions do exist and are out there. The advantages would be the same as normal CPS:

    - Newer/more recent features;
    - Able to read/write to radios with newer codeplug versions;
    - The depot menus support the addition of recent flash options;
    - Able to edit the FCC 12.5 KHz Narrowbanding limits

    Depot is the ultimate desire for any Moto hobbyist. I know it's like "I NEED IT SO BAD!" but really, there's nothing that great. Depot doesn't allow for button reassignment or "undocumented" features. Basically it just allows you to create a codeplug with whatever flash you need to work with, and force it into the radio. Unfortunately many people who have played with Depot don't even know how to properly provision a codeplug for the correct vocon size, and end up causing problems for users down the chain.

    I promise you I'm not giving you a BS answer or fudging the facts. Anyone who has legit access to the Depot software will say the same thing.

    The ideal software to get ahold of would be Lab. That would allow for some advanced debugging and experimentation. But even then, it's really only useful if advanced techs are trying to troubleshoot a network problem (access to many hidden trunking system/network/timing values) and create a special hardware platform for a specific customer.

    The "cool" mods which I've managed to incorporate into my gear are things like:

    - Advanced Noise Suppression Attenuation in the ASTRO Spectra Plus (Firmware supports it, but Moto left it out as the original AS+ vocon was 4MB, and did not support it. Later 8MB vocons/firmware support it, but Moto forgot to update CPS to auto-query the AN/BN model number suffix for firmware-support of the feature.)

    - Soft ID encode/decode on the XTS4000

    - High/low power toggle in the XTS2500 (They finally included it in CPS 17...but CPS 17 bricks radios!)

    - High/low power toggle for the H/L button on W4 ASTRO Spectra/Plus control head

    - Alternate feature assignment for the TMS button on ASTRO25 series portables and O3 HHCH.

    None of these hacks can be done with Depot, so acquiring it may not satisfy the "hacker" in everyone.

    Hope my long-winded post is insightful and not too discouraging.

  25. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 04, 2012
    Posts
    23
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    them?Thanks Mars, like always full of useful information! You mentioned there are some other pieces of software out there, are you referring to lab or are there others? I've never seen lab mentioned on astro25 line. I was thinking lab and depot were one in the same. I have an interest in all kinds of cool hacks. I've been around the equipment for years but only recently gained an interest in the custom hacks and experimentation part of it and this is a great site to learn from! Also more on the way to un grey the boxes and are there any useful things you can do with any of them? I guess i am just out of luck for rssi display.

    On a side note wouldn't it be cool to work for big M where you had the chance to play with all this lab and depot software!

  26. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 21, 2011
    Posts
    4,131
    Thanks
    2,776
    Thanked 4,931 Times in 1,469 Posts
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kevlar1307 View Post
    You mentioned there are some other pieces of software out there, are you referring to lab or are there others?
    They would fall into the "others" category. I can't name the software.

    I've never seen lab mentioned on astro25 line. I was thinking lab and depot were one in the same.
    There's CPS, Special CPS (SP stuff for certain customers), Depot and Lab. Lab is the ultimate piece of software. But I do not have it, nor do I need it. Lab is basically just a GUI database editor. If you know what each block/offset does in a given partition, there's no need for a GUI interface, besides convenience.

    Also more on the way to un grey the boxes and are there any useful things you can do with any of them? I guess i am just out of luck for rssi display.
    Sometimes the FPP zones can get screwed up in a radio which has been "played with". The checkbox mods allow for manual manipulation/recreation of FPP zones, which can fix codeplug errors, as reported within CPS.

    Other items off the top of my head: 2.5/4.0/5.0 KHz bandwidth selection on 900 MHz radios (normally restricted to 2.5 KHz), Encrypted Tactical Inhibit enable/disable (kind of useless), and the ability to check off boxes like "PAGE" and "Talkaround" when they're greyed-out. This is good for fixing mode configurations, without having to change the analog/mixed/digital boxes, which can be time-consuming.

    Like I said before, nothing spectacular or undocumented. Just remember CPS is a graphical database editor. The codeplug is the database file. The CPS has locks/rules in place, limiting what you can edit. If you remove the rules, you can access restricted fields in the editing interface.

    All is not as it seems. The potential is there to change certain fields like the serial number, model number, flashcode, etc. But if you attempt to write the radio, other security provisions prevent you from putting those changes into effect. CPS can't be converted to Depot, by enabling this type of mod. There's lots of missing code, too.

    As for working for the /\/\, I wouldn't want to. The treat their customers like ****, hire incompetent people and dont listen to customer feedback. But even worse, is many of the internal departments are too isolated from each other. Integration is an issue. Sometimes being too big, is not a good thing.

    Do they make a good product? Absolutely. But other companies also have some fantastic competing products.