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Thread: Manual for RLN4460A

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    Default Manual for RLN4460A

    Anyone have a manual for this little bugger? Something that indicates what settings to use for which tests. Can't seem to find that information anywhere.


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    Is this what you need?

    Some of the settings specific to the model radio being tested are in that radio's service manual.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Last post is correct, consult the basic service manual for the radio, the alignment section will give the setup needed.

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    And if using the RLN4460 with Autotest, it will also prompt you to the correct setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MotoBill View Post
    And if using the RLN4460 with Autotest, it will also prompt you to the correct setup.
    I noticed that, but it still fails a test or two, and I think it's because of the settings. Also, when autotesting the 3000 with the adaptor, the settings are different and confusing. I will look closely at the basic service manuals and see what I can figure out.

    Thanks

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    Which tests are failing? If low power output or receive sensitivity, I have seen situations where the coax cable loss is the problem. Multiple adapters and poor RG-58 should be avoided. I use only RG-8X, max 30" length with good quality RF Industries crimp connectors of the proper type on the bench. Use the correct connectors on the cable, no adapters. The loss at 700/800 mHz is quite high when poor quality adapters are added to the connection. We have used RG-8X up to 6' long to connect with mobile transceivers in the trunk of squads and the service monitor on a rolling cart in order to avoid having to pull the transceiver just to do a periodic test. 8X is highly flexible, very low loss at high freqs and is a delight to work with. If you are testing portables, use a battery eliminator and stable regulated power supply, not a battery.

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    I got to run it again and check, and see if I can get it to work based on different setting of the RLN box. I only use RG400 for portable test cables, with proper connectors, and never longer than 3 feet. My moviles are usually longer, about 6 feet, and either RG400 or 142. I don't think that is my issue, but to confirm, I will throw it on a tracking generator and see how large the loss is over the UHF and VHF spectrum. Nothing I do (except for perhaps the APX8K, which I have been postponing a tune up for, since manually I think I will be stuck in from the service monitor for hours) is in 800mhz. And I use a battery eliminator for portables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ppcradioman View Post
    ...Use the correct connectors on the cable, no adapters...
    In order to properly calibrate the test set for cable loss and the whole reference cable procedure, you pretty much have to use an adapter, with as close as possible loss to the adapter to be used on the radio.

    If you aren't using any adapters, I can't see how you'd complete the cable loss procedure properly and accurately.

    I recommend the MegaPhase cables, and RF industries unidapt.

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    So, BER keeps showing up as N/A, and for some reason, "Noise Squelch" fails. If I run Noise Squelch alone, it always fails. If I run BER alone, it also fails, though if I run it as part of all the other tests/alignments, it shows as N/A.

    Thoughts?
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    What model of subscriber, what software versions in test set? Also what options in test set?

    For the BER, sounds like a missing option dependancy

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    That's an XTS5000. I can run it on a 3K if you think it would be helpful to you.

    Firmware
    Standard V6.12.I00
    Proj 25 V6.11.H00
    Trunking V6.03.T00

    Options Installed:
    Tracking Generator
    Cable Fault
    C-Message Filter
    CCitt Filter
    Phase Modulation
    Graphics Printout
    Enhanced Spectrum Analyzer
    Full Test Setups
    Proj 25 Conventional
    Proj 25 Trunking
    Astro
    Securenet
    DVP
    DES
    DVP-XL
    DES-XL
    Software Encryption
    DES-OFB
    Motorola Analog Trunking
    ASTRO VSELP Trunking
    ASTRO IMBE Trunking

    I am able to run BER test without the Autotest, so I wonder if it might be some sort of incompatibility, or perhaps the FC of the portable is throwing the test off?

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    R2670 I take it? A or B? What is FC of the XTS5000? I think you are on right track, BER should be included so try different portables/flashes.

    So I take it you have the RVN5027/b or RVN5016/b if you can do both XTS 3k and 5K?

    Testing with XTS3000 is a good idea, that 6.12 firmware should be OK for Autotest.

    More familiar with R8000B/C or R8100, 3920/b. A little jealous of the Securenet and VSELP however

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    Yeap, 2670, A. FC is 5A0001001306-6. I have the RLN4460 and the adapter (01-80303E49)

    I'll run the 3K through its paces, and see what happens.

    Thanks

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    Well, ran the 3K through its paces, and it also fails the "Noise Squelch" though BER does pass. I wonder if there is an issue with the RLN box I am using, or the 2670, which, I might add, was just calibrated?

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    It's curious that the XTS5K passes the SINAD test in that this is a good indication that receiver sensitivity is within specifications, and that audio noise and distortion products yield a SINAD value comseruate with the injected RF level and tone modulation. Does the XTS3000 also pass the SINAD test?

    So why does the noise squelch test fail? You might observe what frequency or frequencies are generated on the 2670 while running the SINAD and Noise Squelch tests. It occurs to me that for UHF and 700/800 MHz models, that front end filter aligment would be prerequisite to performing these tests.

    Might I suggest manual measurement of these same parameters to benchmark the DUT if you discover that AutoTest is running them on frequencies spread far enought apart that a front end alignment issue may be responsible for the failied noise squelch test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MotoBill View Post
    It's curious that the XTS5K passes the SINAD test in that this is a good indication that receiver sensitivity is within specifications, and that audio noise and distortion products yield a SINAD value comseruate with the injected RF level and tone modulation. Does the XTS3000 also pass the SINAD test?

    So why does the noise squelch test fail? You might observe what frequency or frequencies are generated on the 2670 while running the SINAD and Noise Squelch tests. It occurs to me that for UHF and 700/800 MHz models, that front end filter aligment would be prerequisite to performing these tests.

    Might I suggest manual measurement of these same parameters to benchmark the DUT if you discover that AutoTest is running them on frequencies spread far enought apart that a front end alignment issue may be responsible for the failied noise squelch test.
    I'll run the 3k through the SINAD to confirm, but my recollection is that it passed. /JUST CONFIRMED, it does pass.

    I can run the tests manually, however, I don't see a "squelch test" in the 5k service manual to run. Also, for BER, the instructions are well, not really instructions. Just tells me what the settings do, but not how to do them. My understanding is that the receive BER injects a test pattern into the radio, while the tech/software alters the output of the generator. What should I be shooting for, output power and percentage wise?

    Same with the TX BER test, doesn't say how to accomplish the test, and what the results should, or should not, be. Can you help at all?

    Thanks,
    Michael

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    Michael,

    When time allows, will you please run SINAD and Noise Squelch tests on the XTS5K and note the test frequencies for each as sent to the R2670 by AutoTest? You might also run the receiver BER test to see what pattern AutoTest is commanding of the R2670 as well. When time allows today, I plant to setup my 2670 and run the same battery of tests on a couple of XTS5K's to see how mine stacks up against your results.

    Bill

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    autotest should work fine ...either version R2670 or even R2600 ( needs later firmware and no BER ...autoest typically checks the service monitor for P25 fuctionality and disables if not there )

    Squelch test is pretty simple ...looking for the presence of AC voltage /audio out as it adjusts the signal level.

    I have seen this fail on occasional units ...very few. There is no adjustment in the 3000 or 5000 for the squelch level.

    I normally leave the speaker enabled on the test box to hear whats going on with units that are failing.

    you can look at the report and see what the squelch level that is sees and what the pass value is set to ,

    You can adjust the test parameters if it is consistently failing on 'good " radios

    Have never seen the BER fail ...the NA means to me that your service monitor does not have P25 or the radio does not have P25 ( never seen that on any of the radios I have tested all the way back to Astro Sabers ) and it looks like you should have that if you can run the BER test manually

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiredwrx View Post
    I'll run the 3k through the SINAD to confirm, but my recollection is that it passed. /JUST CONFIRMED, it does pass.

    I can run the tests manually, however, I don't see a "squelch test" in the 5k service manual to run. Also, for BER, the instructions are well, not really instructions. Just tells me what the settings do, but not how to do them. My understanding is that the receive BER injects a test pattern into the radio, while the tech/software alters the output of the generator. What should I be shooting for, output power and percentage wise?

    Same with the TX BER test, doesn't say how to accomplish the test, and what the results should, or should not, be. Can you help at all?

    Thanks,
    Michael
    The XTS5K BSM section 5.4 gives the information on the issues you are looking for. Table 5.5 in that section gives specific instructions for each test. Note that for the squelch test you must set the volume control for audio output at a specified level and that you must be on a convention channel, not P25. The BER test is on the next page, table 5.6. Hope this helps get you pointed in the right direction, together with the info from the HP authority, JRY above.

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    Michael,

    I just completed running AutoTest on a two XTS5000's, one on UHF and the other on 700/800 MHz. Both radios passed all tests.
    Screen capture and test results from the UHF test posted below.

    My service monitor is the General Dynamics branded R2670B that has the following firmware:
    STANDARD - V7.02.I01
    PROJ 25/ASTRO/SNET - v6.11.H00
    DISPLAY - V01.03.00

    Two comments that may or may not have relevance to your test failures...

    One, AutoTest prompts your to adjust the volume control to obtain a voltage of between 1 and 3.5 volts AC.
    The test software generates a full quieting signal with tone modulation with the voltmeter displayed to facilitate operator adjustment.

    Two, my R2670 at boot up into Standard test mode has reduced speaker volume that is evident when opening the squelch on the service monitor in Monitor mode.
    I have found that if I toggle the test mode to Project 25 and then back to Standard that the volume from the speaker is normal. I believe this to be a firmware bug, but who knows? I can't say that it necessarily impacts any of the demodulated audio voltage measurements, it's just something that I do on power-up to eliminate that possibility.

    Notice that AutoTest did not perform receiver front-end alignment even though the UHF model tested requires such alignment! I guess they didn't figure that it mattered?

    I'd appreciate it if you'd post test results from one of your XTS5000's for comparison.

    AutoTest Screen Capture

    AutoTest Screen Capture.PNG

    AutoTest Results


    Radio Alignment Report


    Serial #: 320CHZ3477 Date/Time: 03/25/2020 11:27
    Model #: H18QDH9PW7AN Operator ID: Operator

    Reference Oscillator Test & Align
    ==============================
    Result Freq-MHz Error-Hz NewSoftpot OldSoftpot
    ------ -------- -------- ---------- ----------
    Pass 469.925000 -8 211 208


    Transmit Deviation Balance Test & Align
    ================================================== =
    Result Freq-MHz 80 Hz Dev 3 KHz Dev NewSoftpot OldSoftpot
    ------ -------- --------- --------- ---------- ----------
    Pass 380.025000 3.710 3.780 20 24
    Pass 390.025000 3.710 3.760 27 31
    Pass 400.025000 3.710 3.790 32 36
    Pass 411.025000 3.710 3.710 34 39
    Pass 424.925000 3.590 3.590 35 40
    Pass 425.025000 3.710 3.750 24 29
    Pass 435.025000 3.710 3.720 30 35
    Pass 445.025000 3.710 3.740 34 39
    Pass 457.025000 3.710 3.740 36 41
    Pass 469.925000 3.580 3.610 36 41


    Transmit Deviation Limit Test & Align
    ==================================
    Result Freq-MHz DevLim-kHz NewSoftpot OldSoftpot
    ------ -------- ---------- ---------- ----------
    Pass 380.025000 2.82 16777 15819
    Pass 390.025000 2.82 16591 15424
    Pass 400.025000 2.83 16364 15104
    Pass 411.025000 2.82 16658 14912
    Pass 424.925000 2.82 16639 14848
    Pass 425.025000 2.81 16633 14976
    Pass 435.025000 2.82 16643 14976
    Pass 445.025000 2.82 16451 14784
    Pass 457.025000 2.80 16307 14784
    Pass 469.925000 2.81 16436 14848


    Reference Frequency
    ===================
    Result Freq-MHz Error-Hz
    ------ -------- --------
    Pass 380.025000 150


    Transmit RF Output Power
    ========================
    Result Freq-MHz Power-W
    ------ -------- -------
    Pass 380.025000 4.09


    Transmit Voice Modulation (External)
    ====================================
    Result Freq-MHz Deviation-kHz
    ------ -------- -------------
    Pass 380.025000 4.390


    Transmit Voice Modulation (Internal)
    ====================================
    Result Freq-MHz Deviation-kHz
    ------ -------- -------------
    Pass 380.025000 4.60


    Receive Distortion
    ==================
    Result Freq-MHz Distortion-%
    ------ -------- ------------
    Pass 380.075000 2.20


    Receive Noise Squelch
    =====================
    Result Freq-MHz Output Level-dBm
    ------ -------- ----------------
    Pass 380.075000 -121.00


    Receive SINAD
    =============
    Result Freq-MHz Output Level-dBm SINAD-dBm
    ------ -------- ---------------- ---------
    Pass 380.075000 -121.00 11.63


    Bit Error Rate (BER) Test
    =========================
    Result Freq-MHz Reference Sensitivity
    ------ -------- ---------------------
    Pass 380.075000 -121.5
    Last edited by MotoBill; 1 Week Ago at 07:39 PM.

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    ran into that volume issue on he R2670 a few years ago ....believe it to be a feature of the later firmware and P25/ FDMA option. it's there on all of them ...not sure if it was specific to the B's or both vintages.

    Auto-Test on the R2670 is really just that ...testing with some alignments.

    Power level is not adjusted as well as bias values etc ....

    It is what it is ....I really just use it as a QA check on units before sending back to the customer ...for that it's great.

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    The XTS5000 AutoTest software that I've been using is Version 1.2.2.0 with a release date back to 2007. I don't know if there were any newer releases for the R2670's but this particular version was not very well thought out. No alignment or even any benchmarking to check front-end alignment on models that require such alignment.

    I have found a bug, there's probably several of them. AutoTest doesn't necessarily initialize the analyzer properly. In one of my test runs today, I observed the RF input warning message telling me to increase attenuation! I immediately aborted the test run and manually set the RF attenuator to 40 dB before restarting the test.

    The internal voice modulation test is a joke! This is the test where you have to hold the radio near the speaker in the analyzer then key the mic and adjust the analyzers volume control to obtain 4 KHz deviation of feedback. How scientific is this? This test sometimes fails if you don't hit the right feedback frequency.

    I agree that this older test software is good for a QA checks, but it leaves a lot to be desired for anything else. I been retired for a while and haven't seen any of the new service monitors optioned with AutoTest, but wonder how well it works?

    Does anyone know if General Dynamics ever releases anything newer that V 1.2.2.0 of their XTS5000 AutoTest software package?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MotoBill View Post
    Michael,

    When time allows, will you please run SINAD and Noise Squelch tests on the XTS5K and note the test frequencies for each as sent to the R2670 by AutoTest? You might also run the receiver BER test to see what pattern AutoTest is commanding of the R2670 as well. When time allows today, I plant to setup my 2670 and run the same battery of tests on a couple of XTS5K's to see how mine stacks up against your results.

    Bill
    As it stands, I have a little time these days

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    Quote Originally Posted by ppcradioman View Post
    The XTS5K BSM section 5.4 gives the information on the issues you are looking for. Table 5.5 in that section gives specific instructions for each test. Note that for the squelch test you must set the volume control for audio output at a specified level and that you must be on a convention channel, not P25. The BER test is on the next page, table 5.6. Hope this helps get you pointed in the right direction, together with the info from the HP authority, JRY above.
    I will RTFM a little closer. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MotoBill View Post
    Michael,

    I just completed running AutoTest on a two XTS5000's, one on UHF and the other on 700/800 MHz. Both radios passed all tests.
    Screen capture and test results from the UHF test posted below.

    My service monitor is the General Dynamics branded R2670B that has the following firmware:
    STANDARD - V7.02.I01
    PROJ 25/ASTRO/SNET - v6.11.H00
    DISPLAY - V01.03.00

    Two comments that may or may not have relevance to your test failures...

    One, AutoTest prompts your to adjust the volume control to obtain a voltage of between 1 and 3.5 volts AC.
    The test software generates a full quieting signal with tone modulation with the voltmeter displayed to facilitate operator adjustment.

    Two, my R2670 at boot up into Standard test mode has reduced speaker volume that is evident when opening the squelch on the service monitor in Monitor mode.
    I have found that if I toggle the test mode to Project 25 and then back to Standard that the volume from the speaker is normal. I believe this to be a firmware bug, but who knows? I can't say that it necessarily impacts any of the demodulated audio voltage measurements, it's just something that I do on power-up to eliminate that possibility.

    Notice that AutoTest did not perform receiver front-end alignment even though the UHF model tested requires such alignment! I guess they didn't figure that it mattered?

    I'd appreciate it if you'd post test results from one of your XTS5000's for comparison.
    I'll try and post something tomorrow.