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Thread: Need a definitive answer on APX & 25 kHz spacing

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    Question Need a definitive answer on APX & 25 kHz spacing

    Can someone tell me definitively whether or not an APX radio that DOES NOT have the "Q507 - 12.5 kHz FCC Mandate" will allow a conventional channel to be programmed with 25 kHz spacing throughout its entire operating frequency range? At one of our locations we are operating a conventional VHF system for interoperability reasons, and I want to get some APX radios out there but all I see are conflicting reports of whether the absence of the Q507 option opens the entire frequency range to have a conventional channel programmed with 25 kHz spacing. I am specifically looking at APX2000 and APX4000 radios.


    Thank you for your time!


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    If the radio does NOT have the 12.5kc limitation, it will program in wide band.
    "God as my witness" - Jeremy Dewitte - Felon

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    All current manufactured APX radios have the limitation. They come with the Q507. You will have to have that removed or order them without it. Once removed the radio will program wideband on any frequency.

    Remember Moto plays hard to get on this feature. Even with proof of a wideband freq Moto does not like to co-operate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Notarola View Post
    Moto does not like to co-operate.
    For everything else, there's Depot. [MasterCard theme]

    Remember, this feature doesn't cost any money, and it is a negative option. We can't condone loss of revenue, but we can advocate for common sense.

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    Mars as usual is spot on. You own the equipment. You should not have to spend any $$$ for it to operate as desired.

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    More discussion can be found here

    https://communications.support/threa...861#post112861

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    Even with Q507 you have a lot of flexibility for wideband programming. From CPS:

    The impacted FCC Part 90 Frequency ranges are:

    VHF: 150.8000 to 162.0125 MHz, and 173.2000 to 173.4000 MHz

    UHF1 / UHF2: 421.0000 to 469.9950 MHz

    EXCEPTIONS: After the FCC mandate takes effect, specific frequencies in the above VHF and UHF ranges that are not subject to Part 90 narrowbanding, or have a Part 90 exception noted below, are still allowed to operate at 25 kHz. Examples include: Part 22 frequencies, Part 74 frequencies, Part 80 marine frequencies, FRS / GMRS and MURS, Part 97 amateur frequencies, and NOAA weather channels. (See also: the Tx Deviation / Channel Spacing field.)

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    The truth here is, with all of the exceptions already accounted for, there is absolutely no reason in North America that you should need Q507 removed and the FCC will likely agree and deny a waiver.

    9 times out of 10, people just need to get out of their chairs and reprogram several hundred radios.

    Needing to reprogram a lot of radios is not a valid reason to need Q507 removed or to be eligible for an FCC waiver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PSEhub View Post
    there is absolutely no reason in North America that you should need Q507 removed
    What if you want to operate wide band?

    There are plenty of good reasons to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CQDX View Post
    What if you want to operate wide band?

    There are plenty of good reasons to do so.
    You can already operate wide band anywhere it is legal to do so without removing Q507 as laid out in Number 6's post.

    If it is legal for you to operate elsewhere besides what is already allowed with Q507, it means you already have a waiver or can prove exemption and your Motorola account manager will happily help you.

    The Federal Depot no longer removes Q507, you must get flash keys from your account manager.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PSEhub View Post
    The truth here is, with all of the exceptions already accounted for, there is absolutely no reason in North America that you should need Q507 removed and the FCC will likely agree and deny a waiver.

    9 times out of 10, people just need to get out of their chairs and reprogram several hundred radios.

    Needing to reprogram a lot of radios is not a valid reason to need Q507 removed or to be eligible for an FCC waiver.
    Here in Ontario many rural and county fire departments are still wideband analog (mine included). So right off the hop, Q507 has to go! It's not a huge issue primarily because these small departments can't afford APX radios to begin with. The vast majority have switch to XPR7550s with intentions of going digital down the road...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forts View Post
    Here in Ontario many rural and county fire departments are still wideband analog (mine included). So right off the hop, Q507 has to go! It's not a huge issue primarily because these small departments can't afford APX radios to begin with. The vast majority have switch to XPR7550s with intentions of going digital down the road...
    Sure, they can buy low tier 7550 radios, take the online narrowband course and obtain the wideband EID. Or they can fuss with CPS for wideband. They would be better off buying used XTS radios.

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    No need for anyone to take an online course. The local radio shop that takes care of the county radios is already setup & good to go. Remember here in Canada we weren't force into NB like the US was. And buying used 10 year old portables makes no sense. DMR is quite popular with fire services around here due to the increased channel capacity and many of the features P25 offers but at a much lower price point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forts View Post
    many of the features P25 offers but at a much lower price point.
    Because we all know P25 is a taxpayer scam which does not offer the benefit of TDMA/dual-timeslot functionality unless it's via trunking. DMR can take advantage of TDMA through conventional means with the same audio quality as P25 Phase II, at about 1/6th the price.

    Motorola can go scam someone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forts View Post
    No need for anyone to take an online course. The local radio shop that takes care of the county radios is already setup & good to go. Remember here in Canada we weren't force into NB like the US was. And buying used 10 year old portables makes no sense. DMR is quite popular with fire services around here due to the increased channel capacity and many of the features P25 offers but at a much lower price point.
    Then stop whining about not being able to use wideband analog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forts View Post
    No need for anyone to take an online course. The local radio shop that takes care of the county radios is already setup & good to go.
    Being in Canada, I was able to obtain the EID without having to take the course.

    However, most of the fire departments that use XPR's have gone digital or are about to. Of the 18 municipalities that make up our county, 13 are DMR, 1 is P25 and 4 are analog. Of the 4 that are analog, 3 will be switching to DMR shortly. They've even coordinated their groups and radio ID's to avoid duplication. The municipalities with larger areas have moved their public works department over to DMR and used their frequency to create IP Site Connect systems giving them better coverage.

    Most probably couldn't afford to do this with P25.
    Cyrus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 6 View Post
    Then stop whining about not being able to use wideband analog.
    Go take your nap, you ******* idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    Go take your nap, you ******* idiot.
    Mars, if he will admit it, endorses putting $100 XTS radios into service for analog and P25.

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    I appreciate everyone's replies thus far. In my case, while we are a USG agency, we 100% need the 25 kHz spacing and have no way around it because of where we operate, and it would be a matter of multiple countries and thousands of radios and infrastructure getting reprogrammed. Right now, NONE of the APX4000's I have include the Q507, so I should be good to go.

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    APX radios are sold in many countries around the world.

    The USA is the only market that requires a technical control to prevent users programming 25KHz channels. Many nations still permit 25KHz channels.

    Radios without Q507 work as any other radio sold globally would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by syntrx View Post
    APX radios are sold in many countries around the world.

    The USA is the only market that requires a technical control to prevent users programming 25KHz channels. Many nations still permit 25KHz channels.

    Radios without Q507 work as any other radio sold globally would.
    My concern/issue is that since we are a USG agency, we would be buying them from a US dealer or directly from Motorola, but they would then be shipped overseas and used on a system that needs 25kHz spacing. When we make the large order, I am going to try to get these without Q507 from factory. So far, all of the 12 APX4000s I have ordered have come without Q507 and they have a MFR date from 12/2019.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EindhovenOne View Post
    My concern/issue is that since we are a USG agency, we would be buying them from a US dealer or directly from Motorola, but they would then be shipped overseas and used on a system that needs 25kHz spacing. When we make the large order, I am going to try to get these without Q507 from factory. So far, all of the 12 APX4000s I have ordered have come without Q507 and they have a MFR date from 12/2019.
    Ok, wait a minute here... you're a USG agency, that has already taken delivery of dozen radios without Q507. Q507 has been around long before 2019. Of all the customers in the world, conventional wisdom would say that the US government could get pretty much anything it wanted included or deleted (specification wise) on radios its purchases. I'm not sure why you're concerned here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PSEhub View Post
    If it is legal for you to operate elsewhere besides what is already allowed with Q507, it means you already have a waiver or can prove exemption and your Motorola account manager will happily help you.
    What if I'm Jonestown Volunteer FF, using Maxtracs and HT600s from 20 years ago, and can't afford to switch out to NB compliant equipment?

    What's the FCC going to do aside from send threatening letters? Nobody is going to come knocking and seize the equipment.

    Narrowbanding is 100% an industry-lead scam to force users into buying radios they don't need. There's plenty of spectrum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by orangekitty56 View Post
    Ok, wait a minute here... you're a USG agency, that has already taken delivery of dozen radios without Q507. Q507 has been around long before 2019. Of all the customers in the world, conventional wisdom would say that the US government could get pretty much anything it wanted included or deleted (specification wise) on radios its purchases. I'm not sure why you're concerned here.
    The reason I was concerned was because there were a few mentions in this thread about how the factory would never ship radios without Q507 no matter what. So it's either the case that such a statement is not true because of my APX untis not having Q507, or that mine were just missed somehow or that they've been sitting on a shelf since before all of the outgoing radios got the Q507...

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    Buy APX2000s