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Thread: TETRA terminals out of band?

  1. #1
    syntrx No Longer Registered

    Default TETRA terminals out of band?

    Hey guys,

    Will Motorola TETRA terminals, specifically the MTP850 and MTH800 go out of band? If so, what's involved in making them do so?

    There's a fair amount of this gear on the market at the moment and it'd be fun to try it out on the bottom end of 70cm (by pushing 380-430MHz terminals up to, say, 431-433MHz.)
    Last edited by syntrx; Mar 12, 2013 at 01:51 AM.


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    I've wondered if TETRA would be legal on the ham bands in the US.

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    I've used Tetra myself commercially and while it works well in a properly provisioned network the DMO range is poor with the low power and the necessary received signal levels. I have never seen a mod for DMO out-of-band but that's not to say it can't be done. Could be codeplug limited (easy) or firmware limited (more of a problem)? As you say some nice looking kit turning up on the 'bay. I'm guessing that for you the IARU R3 band plan would apply and Tetra on 430.025 MHz looks fine.

    @aloha: What section of Part 97 do you think would be an issue? And since syntrx is asking about a band extension above 430 MHz it would be a reasonable guess he's not in the US...
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    I'm honestly not sure. I suppose if TRBO is TETRA probably would be too. I've not done the research, was more poking around to see if someone else had.

  5. #5
    syntrx No Longer Registered

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    I'm in Australia. We operate under a very sensible licensing regime that simply provides limits for maximum occupied bandwidth and power, but otherwise lets you use whatever mode you feel like. This would fit nicely with the experimental segment of our national band plan at around 431MHz.

    Handset to handset DMO is going to be lousy, but I was thinking more along the lines of DMO Repeater operation through a 10W mobile with an efficient antenna system. Even then, this would be for reasonably short range comms across a handful of city blocks with the DMO Repeater installed in a small briefcase and deployed either in an upper floor hotel room or in a vehicle at the top of a high rise parking structure.

    Since posting I've learned some terminals will go to 435MHz or so, but any higher tends to require tuning. An forbidden version of CPS beginnging with D is apparently required to achieve this.
    Last edited by syntrx; Mar 21, 2013 at 02:49 AM. Reason: Fixed formatting

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    Quote Originally Posted by aloha View Post
    I'm honestly not sure. I suppose if TRBO is TETRA probably would be too. I've not done the research, was more poking around to see if someone else had.
    Technically, I don't think TRBO/DMR/TDMA has been officially approved as a mode for Amateur band use just yet. Everyone thinks and assumes they will eventually allow it since it's just another digital modulation scheme, but I don't think it's official just yet. So TETRA would be at-your-own-risk on the ham bands...

    I took the same risks when I put up an APCO P-25 machine 10 years ago, it wasn't technically legal at the time but eventually they came around...

  7. #7
    mtp850 No Longer Registered

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    For the Aussie guys above, not sure if you are aware or not but both lots of moto TETRA gear advertised on ebay australia over the past few weeks are not on UHF 400mhz. they are up on 800mhz.

    I have a handful myself on trunked and dmo networks. DMO is ok range wise for a pretty small radio and tmo has extensive coverage in most state metro areas.

    The best part is that no scanner or decoder can monitor(that said, there are also other methods....)

    we are in the process of moving all our gear to DMR(40+ mtp850, / mtm800e radios and 20+ p25 radios. Its a sad time but i cant justify the ongoing costs for us to keep spending each month and the lack of features compared to what the latest dmr gear has to offer for our purpose.

  8. #8
    syntrx No Longer Registered

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    I'm well aware of the 800MHz Zeon gear. I saw a lot of 10 radios on sale for $2000 lately, quite a steal.

    In my case I plan to play with European sourced UHF equipment; there's no way I can get licensing for 800.

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    I think there are also some ex Hong Kong Police MPT750 UHF units available. Unfortunately the '750 does not use the same battery as the XTS3000, unlike the older MPT200/300.
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    Quote Originally Posted by syntrx View Post
    there's no way I can get licensing for 800.
    I reckon you *could* - its just that there's no way to pay for it

  11. #11
    syntrx No Longer Registered

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattSR View Post
    I reckon you *could* - its just that there's no way to pay for it
    Nah, the 800 spectrum auction spectrum went in 1999, and the apparatus licensed remainder is trunking only -- no conventional.

  12. #12
    jlamanske No Longer Registered

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    I think any mode is authorized in the amateur bands as long as it doesn't cause interference just like anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlamanske View Post
    I think any mode is authorized in the amateur bands as long as it doesn't cause interference just like anything else.
    No, there was only specific authorization for AM, FM, SSB, CW and some data modes, Originally FM and SSB weren't on the list, then as they came into widespread commercial use, they got adopted as authorized modes on the Amateur bands. At least that is how it is/was in the US. When hams (like myself) started using APCO P-25 on the Ham bands, there was a 2-3 year period where it was not yet formally allowed by the FCC but was gaining popularity, until they finally officially sanctioned it's use. That's where the TRBO/DMR state-of-affairs is at today.

    Nowadays, most people take the general attitude that you are given or allowed some bandwith, and what you do with it is up to you and the FCC (or DOC or whomever).

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    jlamanske No Longer Registered

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    Ah. I figured with the experimental attitude of the amateur community and the freedom of use granted to them for the spectrum that the FCC would allow more. I stand corrected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtp850 View Post
    we are in the process of moving all our gear to DMR
    Do you think Zeon will have the same fate as 800Mhz Smartnet here in Australia or you think its still viable?

  16. #16
    mtp850 No Longer Registered

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    Quote Originally Posted by fozz3d View Post
    Do you think Zeon will have the same fate as 800Mhz Smartnet here in Australia or you think its still viable?
    That's an interesting question and I won't comment too much on this one due to vested interests.....

    Australia's largest DMR network(or for that matter, the top 3 DMR networks that use moto gear) are not owned by moto directly.

    There are a significant amount of users on Zeon in Australia. Much, much more than 800mhz smartnet had at its peak.

    That said, there is much more to offer in DMR, at a cheaper price and with more features(plus cheaper gear)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtp850 View Post
    That's an interesting question and I won't comment too much on this one due to vested interests.....

    Australia's largest DMR network(or for that matter, the top 3 DMR networks that use moto gear) are not owned by moto directly.

    There are a significant amount of users on Zeon in Australia. Much, much more than 800mhz smartnet had at its peak.

    That said, there is much more to offer in DMR, at a cheaper price and with more features(plus cheaper gear)
    Brisbane City council outsourced rubish collection service has GPS enabled 800mhz zeon system along with there bus service

    There may be more users on zeon then 800mhz smartnet system but it is still very costly solution. We have seen more interest in the navman style tracking/dispatch options over 3g and provide mobiles for voice from corporate customers then them wanting to commit to either zeon or dmr solutions locally.

  18. #18
    mtp850 No Longer Registered

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    Quote Originally Posted by techman View Post
    Brisbane City council outsourced rubish collection service has GPS enabled 800mhz zeon system along with there bus service

    There may be more users on zeon then 800mhz smartnet system but it is still very costly solution. We have seen more interest in the navman style tracking/dispatch options over 3g and provide mobiles for voice from corporate customers then them wanting to commit to either zeon or dmr solutions locally.
    Your not wrong about costly however, some dealers have gone to numerous lengths to keep users jumping ship.

    I know of one recent example where the user way paying for 7 portable radios and after ongoing complaints about radio coverage they were given 5 base stations to install in their houses at NO CHARGE as the signal on the portables were utter rubbish. All this to prevent them jumping ship(too late, they just did and would rather pay more $$ to get stuff that works.

    Plenty of other examples like this out there.

    QLD is a big user!

  19. #19
    syntrx No Longer Registered

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    What sort of money does /\/\ charge for Zeon, anyway?

  20. #20
    W4CLL No Longer Registered

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    Just purchased some Tetra MTP300 radios from Europe. It would be nice if the ribless XTS2500i programming cable
    would work. Anyone have the side port pinout for the MTP300 radio? I do P-25 and DMR here in West Central Florida.

    73 W4CLL

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    If You want to program MTP300, You need FLN2505 interface: http://www.oppermann-telekom.de/bilder/fln2505.jpg What bandsplit do You have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by trbofan View Post
    If You want to program MTP300, You need FLN2505 interface: http://www.oppermann-telekom.de/bilder/fln2505.jpg What bandsplit do You have?
    The MTP300's are 380 - 430 MHz. I do not have the CPS yet. I will need to figure out what CPS
    software I will need. I do have a XTS2500i VHF programming cable that is Ribless. If Tx,Rx,CTS &
    RTS have been moved around a bit, I will probably just buy another Ribless cable and adapt it
    to talk to the Radio.

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    MTP300 is 380-400MHz or 410-430MHz so if You have low band split radio, it won`t work on 430MHz. Can You post model number? And second thing, You cannot program it via COM port, only LPT.

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    "The MTP300's are 380 - 430 MHz. I do not have the CPS yet. I will need to figure out what CPS
    software I will need"

    Hi,

    You will need some 2000/2001 software version like
    FVN4862A (R03.32.02 from MR3.1), usually it will only work on old Win98 US version.
    As Trbofan said, the programming pack used both // port and RS-232 port too.
    Maybe you could mod some MTH300 prog lead to work with MTP300, it's easier to find...

    Here are some descriptions for MTP300 pinouts !
    Attached Files Attached Files

  25. #25
    W4CLL No Longer Registered

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    Thanks, BUP

    I checked the XTS2500i rib-less cable pin-outs and they match the MTP300 pin-out info you provided. The
    cable I have contains a MAX232 TTL-to-RS232 chip internal. It just might work. Now all I need to do is find the Cee Pee S
    and begin the learning.

    73 & Thanks bup