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Thread: P25/TETRA --> TRBO Migration

  1. #1
    mtp850 No Longer Registered

    Default P25/TETRA --> TRBO Migration

    Hi All, The time has come!. I currently service a reasonable amount of users that are using a combination of P25(using OFB and AES crypto) and TETRA gear. I can no longer justify trying to keep most of these guys on these systems where DMR has much more to offer.

    The only issue is that I have a minimal amount of experience with DMR. I have a contact at the local HYTERA dealer however I just purchased 4 MotoTRBO radios to start giving TRBO a last run over before ditching it to move over to the dark side(HYTERA).

    My particular issue is connectivity. What software are you guys using to interface the DMR gear across to smartphone/PC apps & Software ? These days, news/response crews just want to carry either an android/iphone etc and stream audio,.

    Finally, what service monitors and programs are you using that are needed ?
    Last edited by mtp850; Mar 16, 2013 at 05:53 PM.


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    Glad to hear I'm not the only one. P25 served me well for 12 years. I love the radios, but DMR is the only way to go, considering P25 Phase II conventional has not been defined and the radios are not capable of operating in Phase II conventional whatsoever.

    The "partner" I went in on P25 with years ago, still refuses to abandon P25. He tried TRBO briefly (a week) and had nothing but negative comments about the radios, the audio quality, the firmware, etc. He's just making excuses so he can hold on to his antique garbage -- which has absolutely no networking capabilities. Last evening he told me I should've went with P25 Phase II conventional. I guess he's a moron, as P25 Phase II conventional isn't defined yet, and no hardware supports Phase II conventional operation. LOL

    He also is under the belief the audio will be better. This is after I explained both DMR and P25 P2 use the same codec, at the same bitrate, with the exact same FEC specs. But yup, P25 Phase II will sound better. (Not to mention he's going to have to replace all his radios and infrastructure. Good luck getting a P25 P2 repeater for the $1500-1800 a NEW DMR (Moto) box goes for!). Subscriber radios are $700 new (XPR7550), whereas a P25 Phase II sub would be $4000-5000~ new. And there's nothing but junk/ACL radios floating around on the used market, mostly.

    Sorry for the loosely-related rant. I'm just glad there are others who are intelligent enough to see the light with respect to the benefits/advantages of DMR over P25. I feel DMR is the superior choice for progressive hobbyists at this point in time.

    Now as for using smart devices to access the TRBO network, I found TurboVUi Pocket in the iPhone App store. But it requires hardware/gateway equipment to work. I haven't researched pricing.

    I think the Android market would likely be a little more open/supported for this type of thing than the Apple route. I don't have an Android to search the market with (Google Play or something now?). If you find something which is stable and works good, I'm totally interested and would love to explore it, too.

    Haven't had the pleasure of aligning any DMR gear yet, but from the looks of TRBO tuner, I need a new service monitor. Definitely not simple.

    For network monitoring, Neocom Software makes an awesome program called TRBO NetWatch 1.9, but I believe it's proprietary to Moto and it's also very expensive -- about $2000. The demo worked great.

  3. #3
    cyrus's Avatar
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    Apparently somebody demo'd a device hooked up to the accessory port on a mobile which allowed you to control the mobile from a Smartphone using Wifi and you could also receive and transmit from it.
    Cyrus

    Bubbles: I'd like to see that Red Blue Green c***sucker put one of those together, duct-tapin' it.

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    The TrboVui setup will cost between $2000-$2500 for the server/hardware, XPR-4550 mobile and a a couple licenses. It only works with that particular Motorola mobile at this time but the software works great on iOS, Android and Windows. You can even use it as the ARS server on the collect location data from GPS enables radios. If you download the mobile app they have a demo server you can connect to if you want to play with it.

    I can't speak personally for Hytera products but am very satisfied with Motorola MotoTrbo from both the professional and hobby side and never considered switching.

  5. #5
    syntrx No Longer Registered

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    The market for third party apps for Hytera is a lot smaller than it is for TRBO, and these products rely on proprietary technology -- GPS AVL, messaging and other apps designed for a TRBO network will NOT work with Hytera equipment, because they're designed for Motorola's location and messaging protocols, which are not defined in the DMR specifications. Keep this in mind if you want to deploy something like this in future.

    Zello@Work is a nice solution for getting smartphone users onto radio, but the fees for a radio gateway are pretty steep -- about $100 per month the per-user price goes up pretty fast with the number of users you have. Chump change for a business with a few employees, but probably beyond what most hobbyists want to spend. The upside is the only hardware you need to buy is a mobile radio of some sort, a Signalink or other audio interface and have a spare PC to run the gateway on. This isn't DMR specific though, and it only passes audio -- no unit IDs or other signalling.

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    Hi all,

    Saw this from cisco from ICWS 2013 on youtube

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMhgfW8qtc

    This looks to be interesting, this video had tait p25 but from the doco and other related youtube videos they are looking to bridge the technology gaps and make IP networks the link between them all. I have not seen this live but there are a number of whitepapers on other people who have on the cisco web site.

    It is interesting they have p25 comms software running on apple and android apps using LTE networks or 3g carriers (using there vpn software) or connecting using cisco ip phones and can link it all together into talk groups.

    a

  7. #7
    mtp850 No Longer Registered

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    Some great comments guys! I spent most of today doing some reading as its a big step.

    Couple of questions

    1. What service monitors are DMR capable ? Does anyone have a recommendation ? Darn expensive from the looks of it!
    2. Has anyone got any experience with TRBO repeater linking ? i.e. How much bandwith is required ? Can it be run over a VPN ?
    3. Why is the gear so cheap compared to P25 ?
    4. Has anyone tried the "WAVE Connections" setup by twisted pair solutions ? If so, do you have any feedback ? This looks ideal for migration use. (migration will be the key here as not all users will move across at the same time)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtp850 View Post
    2. Has anyone got any experience with TRBO repeater linking ? i.e. How much bandwith is required ? Can it be run over a VPN ?
    Be sure to read the TRBO system planner: https://www.p25.ca/threads/1619-MotoTRBO-System-Planner

  9. #9
    mtp850 No Longer Registered

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    Interesting mars, my MOL account only shows version 2.1 which was from October. I will have a read. Thanks

  10. #10
    syntrx No Longer Registered

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtp850 View Post
    1. What service monitors are DMR capable ? Does anyone have a recommendation ? Darn expensive from the looks of it!
    General Dynamics R8000
    http://www.gdsatcom.com/CTE/datasheets/R8000.pdf

    Aeroflex/IFR 3920
    http://www.aeroflex.com/ats/products...t_Set~171.html

    Expect to get very little change out of 40 grand for either machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtp850 View Post
    3. Why is the gear so cheap compared to P25 ?
    Because government procurement fools and their money are easily parted!

    In short, the vendors charge what the market will bear. P25 gear is only as expensive as it is because the vendors know their target customers (public servants with no regard for the taxpayer's hard earned cash) will pay that kind of money.

    Nothing about the technology itself makes it inherently expensive.

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    Honestly, I have to give Moto some serious credit: That guide is one of the largest, most comprehensive publications they've released in recent years. It's 400+ pages and full of technical information, explanations, facts and figures and just about everything else. Whomever wrote it definitely earned their paycheck last year.

  12. #12
    mtp850 No Longer Registered

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    Out with the old, in with the new.... by by P25 & Tetra. Migrating most of the portables over on Sunday & Mobiles the following week in case anything does not work to plan.

    If anyone is considering a system upgrade and are using Tetra or P25 gear, the cost savings are beyond comprehension.

    Thanks for those that provided info when I was researching.



    P25ca.JPG
    Last edited by mtp850; May 17, 2013 at 08:33 PM.

  13. #13
    vince7003 No Longer Registered

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    i would love. to have a. setup like that.

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    I would echo that TurboVUi is usable product and in the price range of Hams. SF TRBO has a server gateway and while it only works on the XPR-4550 currently, we expect it to expand to other (and newer) models in the future.

    I have only used the Android and PC's but they both perform well. The audio (both Rx and Tx) are solid as are the apps. I leave the PC up for weeks just to monitor and it has never crashed in Win7. We have had about 10 active clients logged in and experienced no issues. It also has a nifty intercom client that allows comm without going out on RF.
    -- Mike, NO7RF, Mazama WA

  15. #15
    standardmissile No Longer Registered

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    Glad to hear I'm not the only one. P25 served me well for 12 years. I love the radios, but DMR is the only way to go, considering P25 Phase II conventional has not been defined and the radios are not capable of operating in Phase II conventional whatsoever.

    The "partner" I went in on P25 with years ago, still refuses to abandon P25. He tried TRBO briefly (a week) and had nothing but negative comments about the radios, the audio quality, the firmware, etc. He's just making excuses so he can hold on to his antique garbage -- which has absolutely no networking capabilities. Last evening he told me I should've went with P25 Phase II conventional. I guess he's a moron, as P25 Phase II conventional isn't defined yet, and no hardware supports Phase II conventional operation. LOL

    He also is under the belief the audio will be better. This is after I explained both DMR and P25 P2 use the same codec, at the same bitrate, with the exact same FEC specs. But yup, P25 Phase II will sound better. (Not to mention he's going to have to replace all his radios and infrastructure. Good luck getting a P25 P2 repeater for the $1500-1800 a NEW DMR (Moto) box goes for!). Subscriber radios are $700 new (XPR7550), whereas a P25 Phase II sub would be $4000-5000~ new. And there's nothing but junk/ACL radios floating around on the used market, mostly.

    Sorry for the loosely-related rant. I'm just glad there are others who are intelligent enough to see the light with respect to the benefits/advantages of DMR over P25. I feel DMR is the superior choice for progressive hobbyists at this point in time.

    Now as for using smart devices to access the TRBO network, I found TurboVUi Pocket in the iPhone App store. But it requires hardware/gateway equipment to work. I haven't researched pricing.

    I think the Android market would likely be a little more open/supported for this type of thing than the Apple route. I don't have an Android to search the market with (Google Play or something now?). If you find something which is stable and works good, I'm totally interested and would love to explore it, too.

    Haven't had the pleasure of aligning any DMR gear yet, but from the looks of TRBO tuner, I need a new service monitor. Definitely not simple.

    For network monitoring, Neocom Software makes an awesome program called TRBO NetWatch 1.9, but I believe it's proprietary to Moto and it's also very expensive -- about $2000. The demo worked great.
    HUA,

    However this statement lacks a few key insights. DMR lacks some of the most essential qualities that APCO-25 contains. Inherent cross vendor inter-operability, equipment durability, and most importantly federal sanctions. While Phase II P25 is piddling around in the committee phase, Phase I continues to be implemented by vendors and agencies/entities alike due to the Narrowbanding requirements (with certain freqs now omitted) set forth by the FCC, as well as the readily US DoHS funding for it's deployment (post 9/11 response).

    I have been considering TRBO as a worthy successor to P25 for the operations that I assist with, and have been advocating the protocol to the National HQ of CAP due to it's affordability, flexibility, and TCP/IP capable backbone (much more flexible with the SDIS and SAR loadouts). That said, with the open standards of P25 companies are scrambling to offer radios for Public Safety due to the need of Agencies to be able to interface to each other in times of crisis, which combined with SDRs as well as software such as OP25 will make this a much longer term technology than the old Type I/IIi, EDACS, propriatary trunked networks of yesteryear. Myself, I have even been consulting with associates whom work in electronic engineering/software programming on building mobile mount SDR radios that support Analog/P25 Phase I/Tetra transmissions with multiband capabilities, resulting in being contacted byu potential investors requesting information.

    All that said, I really think that it's premature to "abandon" P25, but instead time to highlight it's competition to force APCO to evolve the standard into a more affordable, reliable, and capable digital radio protocol.

    Also, dammit Motorola give us QCII on APX! I swear it's not just Mars who needs this done yesterday, but plenty of FDs and local EMS response teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post

    For network monitoring, Neocom Software makes an awesome program called TRBO NetWatch 1.9, but I believe it's proprietary to Moto and it's also very expensive -- about $2000. The demo worked great.
    You can probably get it to work indefinitely, check out these programs to possibly "extend" the demo period:

    http://www.hackpconline.com/2009/11/...ftware_06.html

    If you can completely remove all traces of the TRBOwatch install so the software believes it's being installed for the first time (or do it on another computer) one of these will likely work for you.

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    standardmissile: P25 is solid and the sub equipment is built to handle abusive environments. But as an amateur/low-budget/limited resource/limited site user, try networking P25 without double-vocoding. Brick wall.

    DMR (I use MotoTRBO exclusively) allows for networking, two timeslots, encryption (more like scannerhead lockout) and embedded signalling for a fraction of the cost. And if I don't have any other "agencies" (it's ham) to network with, DMR is clearly the best option to go with.

    And what's wrong with using analog/conventional for interagency communications? Works fantastic. P25 definitely doesn't make "interagency/interopability" any easier. That's all horsecrap from Motorola and other vendors. I ignore those terms as they're irrelevant. The only thing that matters for me is ease of networking and durability/intelligibility of equipment. I would think the same applies to almost any agency considering a communications system.

    QCII: The EFJ Viking VP600/VP900 equipment (aka the APX killers) can do QCII. They do everything the APX can do, minus useless garbage such as lipstick mirror and other miscellaneous useless "on paper" features. I'm going to be selling my APX ASAP and going with the VP900.

    I'll also be putting the Viking series radio(s) through the Mars test. If it sucks, I'm going to vent about it. If it puts the APX to shame, I'll be quite up front about this. Motorola isn't paying attention to their customers.

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    There's a lipstick mirror on the APX? No one told me ...
    It is a fine thing to be honest, but it is also very important to be right

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    It's right next to the cup holder!


  20. #20
    standardmissile No Longer Registered

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    Huh.... I'll tell my boss so he can give an APX to one of the females in the field. The real question now is does it come in pink and can you program it to TX a ditzy ringtone to the other units when the Emergency mode is repeatedly activated?

    Joking aside, I understand your needs for an affordable Ham radio that defeats the idiots with a scanner. For that I would agree that TRBO is a very apt platform.

    I disagree on your comment about inter-operability, as the agencies I have worked with have multiple channels designated as a simplex, non-trunked inter-agency channel where it's clear P25, or is a single established DES key that's published with agencies statewide, updated only about once a month, and available upon an agencies request if needed. Also some guys like me have personal KVL-3011DXes sitting at home, and on more than one occasion I know I've been very politely asked by a local commander to bring mine in for an emergency, upon which I usually get to sit on my A## keyloading for the rest of that shift, instead of having to work it off like everyone else.