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Thread: 700 Mhz ham band?

  1. #1
    high_order1 No Longer Registered

    bang 700 Mhz ham band?

    Hi!

    ( I didn't see an introduce yourself forum by the way)

    Amateurs have always had a sliver of spectrum everywhere there's a public service band. Not finding one on my own I emailed the fcc about it. They, ever helpful, instead of telling me where it is in the 700 band just sent me to somewhere else to ask.

    So, what do y'all think? Can we convince uncle charlie to give us a legit reason to buy 700 megahertz radios?

    Shawn
    Last edited by high_order1; Jun 21, 2012 at 06:05 PM. Reason: little android fat fingers


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    What do I think? Respectfully, I think someone ought to smack you. With the cost of spectrum in "viable" places these days, you're not going to see any new ham bands in that region in our lifetime. I think trying to petition the FCC for spectrum in 700MHz is a gross waste of time. Do you have any idea what the non-public safety blocks of 700MHz cost at auction?

    I hate to be negative about it, but I'm a realist. We, as hams, aren't "owed" anything. All of our existing bands (above 148MHz) are secondary allocations to the Amateur service. 440 is shared with radar systems, 900MHz is shared with ISM/Part 15 devices, 1.2GHz is shared with radar, 220MHz is shared with radar systems.

    Think about it.
    Last edited by d119; Jun 21, 2012 at 10:15 PM.

  3. #3
    high_order1 No Longer Registered

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    Smack me?
    Really?

    The crux of your argument is money and allocations. I had assumed people would 'get' that we would be a secondary user of the band, because it was primarily intended for public safety use.


    How much do you think 440 is worth, and once They Who Do Nextel's Bidding finish pushing public safety and lmr out of that region, how long you think ham will have a toehold there?

    We have ALWAYS colocated, but apathetic hams like you threaten the hobby.

    YOU think about THAT... respectfully.

    Shawn

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    I think the big problem with 700 is there is no military/radar there. The people that are there won't share as D119 alluded to - the commercial Block D interests paid millions (billions?) for the spectrum space they have; they won't share it out of greed. The LEO's that are there won't share it out of safety concerns. So that pretty much kills any chance of Hams getting any 700 spectrum space to play with.

    That said, yes, I am wondering and worrying a bit about what will be come of our beloved 440 band when all the LEO's move to 700/800. At least it will likely be drastically reduced, perhaps completely eliminated in the future.

  5. #5
    high_order1 No Longer Registered

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    Those are my thoughts, albeit more succintly put.

    I still say our chances are zero unless arrl or something similar doesnt push for it.

    Consider: here is a chunk of spectrum we will never get to experiment with or test. Whereas we could interop, now everybody in public safety will be somewhere we can't go or help with.

    Its like sharing a park for 70 years, then suddenly being relegated to watching the others play through a fence.
    Last edited by high_order1; Jun 22, 2012 at 09:26 AM. Reason: its like typing through a porthole

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    Well, we can't go on 800 either, but we're used to that. Interoperability is over-hyped, IMHO - while it would be nice in a perfect world, there are many problems with the current state of the art. Also, existing LEO's would not be happy with Hams popping up on their repeaters, they would view it with all the enthusiasm we would give a CB'er showing up on a Ham repeater Plus, more and more agencies are starting to use encryption to scanner-proof their comms, which is already creating "interoperability" nightmares - yes everyone has common channels, but how do they share encryption keys? That would immediately exclude any Hams, also.

    The other issue is type acceptance, in the Ham world we are allowed to design and operate our own TX equipment, that is the ONLY service you can do that in, to operate in 700/800 the equipment would have to be type accepted by the FCC. There is no Ham band that having type accepted radios is a requirement, so how would you start excluding homebrew stuff? It would be very difficult at best.

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    I always when I hear this "public service" stuff and ham radio, thrown together. Hams are not first responders and most are not in any physical or operational capacity (through education) to perform these types of tasks.

    If hams want to be paramedics/responders, then should get educated and licensed as such.

    If hams want to be "radio technicians", they go to school and get the proper education and become employed in the field of commercial/public-safety radio and operate as a technician. I can tell you right now, hams are unfortunately, in most cases, useless tits who cannot even perform basic station maintenance such as RF connector prep/install, proper grounding, proper/safe vehicular installs and most do not understand the basic concepts of RF exposure limits/safety.

    I'm not picking on hams; I have my advanced/code papers. I just know my place and what it takes to be involved with public safety communications and emergency services. I encourage hams to become licensed professionals or challenge the various APCO-related communications operator aptitude tests and background checks/other requirements associated with such careers, before trying to save the day with "ARES" credentials. Most hams would could not function in a busy 9-1-1 call center. And talking on a repeater all day asking "how's my rig sound", does not qualify one to handle public-safety radio traffic.

    Before hams go getting more spectrum, they should start utilizing all the existing spectrum which they've been assigned. 2M/440 are popular, yes. But what about 222-225 and 902-928? Both are perfectly good bands, but go unused in a majority of locations. The 900 MHz band is extremely fun to play on and more hams should jump on board before the FCC decides to make it another HSPA/LTE band. Range is incredible with a proper repeater. (We get about 85-90km @ 400ft on our machine)

    The hobby of amateur radio has nothing to do with "emergencies" or "public service". Some (most) hams use this as an excuse to install light-bars on their vehicles and "show up" at disasters and self-appoint themselves as "emergency coordinators". Let's just appreciate ham radio for what it is: A great hobby and a way to meet others who share common interests.

    The last thing anyone wants to hear on 700 MHz is some gas-bag hams talking nonsense when they've got plenty of bandwidth elsewhere to pollute the spectrum with.

    And to the OP: I'm definitely not picking on you by any means. My comments are more directed at the overall state of amateur radio and mentality behind ARES.

  8. #8
    high_order1 No Longer Registered

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    Mars,
    I hear you. But having to adjust everything for the lowest common denominator is why my trash bags say not to put them over my head. I say aim high and let the idiots sort themselves out.

    As far as type acceptance, in the words of our pacific rim brethren, if fcc build it, the gears will come...

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    Quote Originally Posted by high_order1 View Post
    Smack me?
    Really?

    The crux of your argument is money and allocations. I had assumed people would 'get' that we would be a secondary user of the band, because it was primarily intended for public safety use.


    How much do you think 440 is worth, and once They Who Do Nextel's Bidding finish pushing public safety and lmr out of that region, how long you think ham will have a toehold there?

    We have ALWAYS colocated, but apathetic hams like you threaten the hobby.

    YOU think about THAT... respectfully.

    Shawn
    Yes, smack you. Really.

    Clearly you didn't read my post in it's entirety. How much do I think 440 is worth? Nothing, to be quite honest. It's shared with very active military radar systems, at least in several major metropolitan areas (I can't speak for the midwest) that very often render voice communications impossible, at least where I live. Am I complaining about it? Hell no! When the radar is off, or very distant, it's a great band and I'm glad we have it!

    But it isn't viable for commercial/public safety/etc. uses. There is FAR too much interference FROM radar systems, and FAR too much potential interference TO radar systems. Look at what happened in Northern California in the last few years: amateur systems had to reduce transmit power to ~5 watts ERP and in some cases completely shut down operations to avoid interference to military radar at Beale AFB.

    So, once again, I consider 440MHz worthless to any entity except the military, and when they aren't busy with it, amateurs. You mention public safety and LMR being in the 440 "region". I see a stark dividing line between 449.9875MHz and 450.0000MHz. To classify 440-470MHz as a "region" is asinine. There is no radar in the 450-470MHz bands, therefore they are MUCH more commercially viable than 420-450.

    Am I apathetic? No. I operate several 440MHz repeaters, a 220MHz repeater, and a 146MHz repeater. I make use of the bands and provide a service to other amateurs. But at the same time, I'm also a communications professional by trade, and a realist by virtue.

    I just think your thoughts and commentary aren't very well thought out from all angles and perspectives. This isn't meant as a flame, just constructive criticism from someone who can see all points of view.

  10. #10
    high_order1 No Longer Registered

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    Well,
    d- the next time I'm in California, I'll be happy to give you your shot. OHwait- you said somebody, not you.

    As far as representing yourself as a communications professional, thats what ares/ares/hamabouts refer to themselves as also, so I guess you're in the best position to say.

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    Hahah oooof.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by high_order1 View Post
    As far as representing yourself as a communications professional, thats what ares/ares/hamabouts refer to themselves as also, so I guess you're in the best position to say.
    Heh, believe me. I've no ARES/RACES affiliations, and I certainly don't have to justify anything to you. The people that matter here on this board know who I am, and that my statements have merit, and that's all that matters.

    Have a nice day!

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    Quote Originally Posted by d119

    Heh, believe me. I've no ARES/RACES affiliations, and I certainly don't have to justify anything to you. The people that matter here on this board know who I am, and that my statements have merit, and that's all that matters.

    Have a nice day!
    I'd say d119 is more qualified to make such statements then 95% of the people on the board.

    His resume is quite impressive.

  14. #14
    XPR8300 No Longer Registered

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    The last thing anyone wants to hear on 700 MHz is some gas-bag hams talking nonsense when they've got plenty of bandwidth elsewhere to pollute the spectrum with.
    Quote of the week! lol

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    I'd rather see a 4-meter (72/75 MHz) allocation opened up, honestly. Think about it for a minute.. it already exists in other parts of the world, that spectrum has little to no commercial value, and the only incumbents are point-point links which are rapidly going the way of the dinosaur. Plus there's plenty of commercial gear to be had (I've got 3 NOS Decibel folded dipoles in the shed) and the Eurasian market produced some fun radios for that band, including GTX and MCS2000 variants plus the ever-popular MX1000/3000 Saber variants.

  16. #16
    XPR8300 No Longer Registered

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    Do you have a source for these 4m Motos? id love to have one but havent been able to find one in that split...

  17. #17
    cyrus's Avatar
    cyrus is offline Trailer Park Superintendent
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    I remember a well known individual selling 66-88Mhz Sabers at Dayton quite a few years back.

    The tag line was "and yes, these will do the broadcast band".
    Cyrus

    Bubbles: I'd like to see that Red Blue Green c***sucker put one of those together, duct-tapin' it.

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    heh I just finished tearing apart a paging base that was on the 66-88Mhz band and have two PA's and circulators if anyone wants them.

  19. #19
    syntrx No Longer Registered

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    Quote Originally Posted by motorola_otaku View Post
    I'd rather see a 4-meter (72/75 MHz) allocation opened up, honestly. Think about it for a minute.. it already exists in other parts of the world, that spectrum has little to no commercial value, and the only incumbents are point-point links which are rapidly going the way of the dinosaur. Plus there's plenty of commercial gear to be had (I've got 3 NOS Decibel folded dipoles in the shed) and the Eurasian market produced some fun radios for that band, including GTX and MCS2000 variants plus the ever-popular MX1000/3000 Saber variants.
    Having used that band commerically, I can say it kicks arse, especially in mountainous terrain.

    It's dead in Australia nowadays, most of its users have moved to UHF or (less often) VHF highband, and it's also cheapest band in which to get licensing because of the lack of demand.

    When I was a kid the cops where I grew up had a system on 78MHz which you could listen to (albeit quietly due to land mobile's relatively narrow deviation) with trivial modifications to a FM broadcast receiver.

    QRM from computers etc can be an issue when in urban areas, but get out into the country and it's fantastic.

  20. #20
    flecom No Longer Registered

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    I always when I hear this "public service" stuff and ham radio, thrown together. Hams are not first responders and most are not in any physical or operational capacity (through education) to perform these types of tasks.

    If hams want to be paramedics/responders, then should get educated and licensed as such.

    If hams want to be "radio technicians", they go to school and get the proper education and become employed in the field of commercial/public-safety radio and operate as a technician. I can tell you right now, hams are unfortunately, in most cases, useless tits who cannot even perform basic station maintenance such as RF connector prep/install, proper grounding, proper/safe vehicular installs and most do not understand the basic concepts of RF exposure limits/safety.

    I'm not picking on hams; I have my advanced/code papers. I just know my place and what it takes to be involved with public safety communications and emergency services. I encourage hams to become licensed professionals or challenge the various APCO-related communications operator aptitude tests and background checks/other requirements associated with such careers, before trying to save the day with "ARES" credentials. Most hams would could not function in a busy 9-1-1 call center. And talking on a repeater all day asking "how's my rig sound", does not qualify one to handle public-safety radio traffic.

    Before hams go getting more spectrum, they should start utilizing all the existing spectrum which they've been assigned. 2M/440 are popular, yes. But what about 222-225 and 902-928? Both are perfectly good bands, but go unused in a majority of locations. The 900 MHz band is extremely fun to play on and more hams should jump on board before the FCC decides to make it another HSPA/LTE band. Range is incredible with a proper repeater. (We get about 85-90km @ 400ft on our machine)

    The hobby of amateur radio has nothing to do with "emergencies" or "public service". Some (most) hams use this as an excuse to install light-bars on their vehicles and "show up" at disasters and self-appoint themselves as "emergency coordinators". Let's just appreciate ham radio for what it is: A great hobby and a way to meet others who share common interests.

    The last thing anyone wants to hear on 700 MHz is some gas-bag hams talking nonsense when they've got plenty of bandwidth elsewhere to pollute the spectrum with.

    And to the OP: I'm definitely not picking on you by any means. My comments are more directed at the overall state of amateur radio and mentality behind ARES.
    Not ALL hams are like this

    anyway, here in Miami we pollute the 800mhz spectrum too, a couple hams have pairs in 800mhz

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    You ought to know there is no legal ham activity in 800 MHz. Unless they happen to be SMR's and legally own and operate the 800 MHz stations as business stations but act like hams, then that's their problem. You can do almost anything you want on a business band channel, including use encryption. I can assure you the local Florida repeater coordinator would NEVER grant a repeater pair outside the ham bands, as any such activity would be illegal.

    I'm going to have to ask you to stop posting stupid stuff to year-old dead threads, please.

  23. #22
    flecom No Longer Registered

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    huh? of course it's not a ham coordination.... I said quite clearly we have pairs in 800, like an FCC licensed SMR pair

    don't worry I won't be participating in any more discussions here

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    A little prickly are we?
    Retarded Mongoloid on PCP...

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    Quote Originally Posted by flecom View Post
    huh? of course it's not a ham coordination.... I said quite clearly we have pairs in 800, like an FCC licensed SMR pair

    don't worry I won't be participating in any more discussions here
    No need to get pouty. You are free to debate anyone here, so long as it's not a flame. But it IS POOR ETIQUETTE to quote posts/threads which are 15-months old, and have been dead for a long time. When you do this, participants of those threads get email notifications that a reply has been posted. If you have nothing of any value to contribute to the thread, it's kind of a pointless email, and doesn't increase the IQ of the thread, or benefit members.

    Different story if you were posting a fix to a problem, like "The hum in that W3 ASTRO Spectra HHCH mic is caused by this component. Remove it, and your problem is resolved."

    I know things can be boring at 3 a.m., but more reading/less posting is probably the best option, especially with archived threads. Thanks!

  26. #25
    high_order1 No Longer Registered

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I'm going to have to ask you to stop posting stupid stuff to year-old dead threads, please.

    Funny.

    The thread was semi-cleaned up. Except for the parts where the guy threatened to slap me. (shrugs) Your board, your rules, your peccadilloes.

    I will say this:

    For a site that exists to help those that would like to learn and use a system that was designed just for public safety, without having a legit route to get there, there sure was a lot of negativity about getting a legit use for said systems...

    *****