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Anyone here (successfully) managing XPR subscribers over enterprise WiFi?

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motoapx

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Jul 17, 2012
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I'm still getting up to speed on using Radio Management to manage subscribers using the built-in WiFi, but there are some implementation details I'm running into that seem to be totally at odds with actually using the feature to manage a large fleet of distributed subscribers in an enterprise environment. I'm wondering if anyone else here is in the same boat, or has had success using WiFi in a larger deployment.

Specifically, these limitations are proving problematic:


  • Radios don't support WPA Enterprise security

This one isn't all that surprising for an early feature release -- the radio would need to be able to manage a certificate trust store and all the baggage that comes with PKI. I would hope that they support certificates in the radio eventually, but for now, I imagine that most administrators will just use a PSK mode and move on with life.


  • According to the TRBO System Planner, the subscribers use *only* DNS-SD (mDNS) to communicate with the RM device programmer.

This one just seems nuts to me. The DNS-SD requirement means that any radio that's going to be programmed by the RM device programmer needs to be on the same wireless LAN or VLAN as the programmer, *and* that wireless network has to support passing Layer 2 multicast traffic. Anyone who's worked with larger wireless networks probably knows that mDNS traffic is one of the things that will quickly saturate an AP unless it is either prohibited or strictly managed. Thus, in many larger deployments, it's usually easier to just turn it off entirely (guess which boat I'm in).

This also means that the RM programmer agent either needs to be split out from the server and presented on the wireless LAN(s) that subscribers participate in, or the RM server (if RM device programmer isn't split out) needs to become a client of the wireless network -- which is a real PITA if you're trying to run the infrastructure applications inside a VM, like any modern IT shop would. You'd need to get your IT shop to present the wireless network segment to a vNIC on the VM, which is a pretty exotic request in a lot of environments.

I'm just in the architecture planning phase in my deploymeny thus far, so I've done close to zero testing. But I'd be very interested to know if anyone has been able to get these things to see each other over IP, or across LANs, not using mDNS (like almost every other IP-capable device in existence). It boggles the mind that these things can acquire an IP using DHCP, but can't use IP to be located and programmed by Radio Management. The "locality" requirement of getting all the radios in the same LAN / VLAN to be programmed is just about the exact opposite of the distributed-infrastructure design goals of IPSC and LCP...
 

Zaarin

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Mar 25, 2013
Messages
72
I was pretty surprised when I read in the system planner that the radios require DNS-SD in order to connect to the device programmer. They could have made it possible to add the static IP address or hostname of the device programmer in the radio. Even the repeaters support DNS nowadays for link establishment so they could add it to the radios as well. I have some e terminals, but haven't had time to set up Wi-fi yet. For the Wi-fi option to be usable for us in some places, I need to make it work over VPN with no device programmer on the radio side of the VPN tunnel. Could be interesting/annoying to figure out...
 
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Rola

Contributing Member
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Jun 20, 2014
Messages
50
Nothing to do with RM but FYI you can read/write a codeplug via WiFi like you would via BT if you enter the radios WiFi IP address into the Bluetooth IP address textbox in the CPS.

Tested working 100% even behind a NAT which might be handy one day if you need to program a radio remotely.
 

PSEhub

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Nov 5, 2012
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I'm sure the major oversight of no enterprise encryption support and relying on Layer 2 multicast will be a huge problem for the exact same types of customers that WiFi fleet programming and upgrading is most advantageous for.

I thought these were professional devices aimed at businesses and government entities. It seems they were of quite a residential/SMB mindset when they designed this. What large organizations don't use WPA2 enterprise 802.1X? What large organizations do blindly pass all multicast traffic all over the place across their entire WLAN? These two questions would have been a more accurate mindset for who these products are geared towards.
 

PSEhub

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I have put the radio clients on their own VLAN and used Dynamic PSK (which is user based, each codeplug template/group of radios shares a PSK along with a MAC whitelist) since we have Ruckus wireless, I'm not sure if other wireless vendors have similar Dynamic PSK based provisioning. http://c541678.r78.cf2.rackcdn.com/feature-sheets/fs-dynamic-psk.pdf

Tightens things up a bit rather than having one PSK for all radios. I leave the MAC restrictions off, then once the right number of radio clients come up, I create the whitelist based on the currently connected clients (rather than manually entering all of them).

Working well so far.
 
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smackdaddy

Contributing Member
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
70
The whole platform really comes across as being half-baked. I found that their DHCP Client implementation doesn't even meet the published RFC spec. The end result is that on many enterprise routers these radios will all be assigned the same IP address.

Good luck to anyone who needs to get this product through an actual enterprise IT security audit. "Just bridge it all at Layer-2 and let DNS-SD do the work" will result in an instant FAIL for most of my enterprise customers.

I had one very large deal where the client decided to call Motorola directly and talk about the Wi-Fi features. They were told magical stories about Unicorns and being able to firmware upgrade 3000+ subscribers in 90 minutes over Wi-Fi. And conveniently they talked the customer out of purchasing a long term service/support agreement because the Wi-Fi feature will magically do everything they need. Meanwhile in reality we can't even get these units to DHCP properly. Not to mention that the Connect Plus option board can't be managed through Wi-Fi. This feature does great things for channel partner relationships and revenue.

Cheers,
SD.
 

shag

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Jan 28, 2013
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The lack of Enterprise-grade WLAN security support (w/PKI) kinda sucks, but I understand why they haven't prioritized it. Hope they add it to a future release.

From a mDNS standpoint, this is pretty standard since other services such as AirPlay are commonly used on enterprise WLAN networks. Most WLAN controllers will have a feature to let mDNS traffic flow from one VLAN/WLAN to another without necessarily letting all multicast traffic pass through, e.g. Cisco's mDNS Snooping/Bonjour Gateway feature. As long as we know which service string the subscriber unit looks for, it should be easy enough.

That being said, that kind of discovery mechanism is a reall bad idea on a large campus network with hundreds or thousands of subscribers... Not sure what they were thinking there. Why not go oldschool and use a DHCP option field, or a DNS SRV record with a service domain?

About that DHCP issue, what's specifically wrong with it? I don't have immediate access to e radios at the time to test.

And FW upgrades on 3K subs over Wi-Fi? HAH!!! Silly salesmen. Hope you don't have any radios on 2.4GHZ in the cafeteria at lunch time, where there are 5-10 microwave ovens all humming along.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
S

syntrx

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MOTOTRBO (and APX radios, for that matter) have a large and scary attack surface when it comes to their network stacks. Putting them on your corporate network would be a catastrophically stupid idea for a whole lot of reasons.

I suspect there's a reason they don't support WPA2 Enterprise; the purpose of wifi on these radios is not for you to put them on your corporate network, but rather to allow you to set up a dedicated AP in a room full of radios, and use that to perform upgrades, codeplug changes or whatever work you need to do much faster than you ever could via a USB cable. In other words, wifi is there as a service aid rather than as a customer feature.
 

Zaarin

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Mar 25, 2013
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Could always have them connect to a different SSID on the current APs and route that to a separate VLAN containing just the radios and RM server.
 
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syntrx

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Separate VLAN and separate VRF. Segregation is a Good Thing(tm)
 
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