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APX vs XPR receiver performance.

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gMan1971

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Well, a 200 foot elevation tower at the top of a mount will certainly go a long way. But just to be clear, there is no need to reach 100 miles either, our current range is acceptable, in fact, preferable over blasting too far away unnecessarily, its that just certain areas are very problematic b/c the RFI noise. The question was really aimed to gauge how well all that extra front end stuff on those APXs compared to the direct RF mighty 5550e/7550e receivers.
 

Keith

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Yep, I fully understand what you are saying. But my point is that an APX radio in all it's glory and cost is designed to be on a system that is designed with a good bit of site overlap in mind and to not really be used in situations where the system coverage has 'fringe' area's. DMR other than capacity max, is operated pretty much as a single site system. Coupled with in the IV&D systems, the radios don't vote sites the same way that DMR does. With DMR it's all about the radio choosing a site based on the RX of the site at the subscriber. With IV&D it does start to hunt at a certain threshold BUT the site also is looking at the BER from the subscriber and will tell it to roam if the BER gets to high at the site as well. And something else to consider. Be it DMR or APX. if you are running a digital radio in analog, you are operating that radio in s secondary function to what the radio was designed for. Meaning, for analog, you may be better off with a non-Astro Spectra or a CDM over either radio for analog only operations. I don't know that any one has ever tested the analog side of either of these radio families against an analog only radio of any quality.
 

PSEhub

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Yep, I fully understand what you are saying. But my point is that an APX radio in all it's glory and cost is designed to be on a system that is designed with a good bit of site overlap in mind and to not really be used in situations where the system coverage has 'fringe' area's. DMR other than capacity max, is operated pretty much as a single site system. Coupled with in the IV&D systems, the radios don't vote sites the same way that DMR does. With DMR it's all about the radio choosing a site based on the RX of the site at the subscriber. With IV&D it does start to hunt at a certain threshold BUT the site also is looking at the BER from the subscriber and will tell it to roam if the BER gets to high at the site as well. And something else to consider. Be it DMR or APX. if you are running a digital radio in analog, you are operating that radio in s secondary function to what the radio was designed for. Meaning, for analog, you may be better off with a non-Astro Spectra or a CDM over either radio for analog only operations. I don't know that any one has ever tested the analog side of either of these radio families against an analog only radio of anyquMotorolarotorolarr than RX audio levelling, and some accessories sounding bad, Motorola is one of the ONLY vendors that has kept phenomenonal analog performance on current models.

Icom, Kenwood have gone slightly down hill on analog on some of the newer models.

The XPR6550 outperforms XTS, and XPR7550e is significantly better than XPR6550. They blow waris out of the water, on DSP and overall sound, and receive sensitivity.

The APX8000 and 8500 are extremely hot on analog and sound great even in crowded 800MHz spectrum with broadband noise


There must be some similarities between the Freon and Mototrbo e series radios in terms of the receive trickery. It seems the last bit of "range" is squeezed out with some fancy software RF AGC techniques rather than actual raw sensitivity.

And this even carries through to analog as well. The APX radios sound better, even on the bench with a signal generator with signals just above squelch than comparable levels injected into XTS the same amount above squelch, much smoother, less course, and more intelligible.


There is way more to Motorola's filtering, RF AGC, DSP software than just raw "sensitivity". There is some pretty advanved trickery going on.
 

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useless in a ham radio application, at least in the US. We can't build trunking systems, and even if we could
Says who?

I'm not familiar with Part 97, but in Canada, one-way transmissions are permitted to establish communications. One could argue that a control channel is a one-way communication designed to establish communications.
 

Keith

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Says who?

I'm not familiar with Part 97, but in Canada, one-way transmissions are permitted to establish communications. One could argue that a control channel is a one-way communication designed to establish communications.
My understanding is that it's not legally possible. Now if that's not the case, then I feel real dumb. Reason is I could have put hands on several 3600 controllers as systems were being updated. It was discussed at length and none of us that were involved could see a way to legally pull if off within the FCC's regulations of ham radio. Not to mention that there are very few open repeater pairs available in this area AND the biggest issue was that the proprietary nature of the control channel requiring a motorola radio (or a Johnson radio BUILT by motorola, Type 2 trunking was just not gonna happen.
 

Astro Spectra

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I don't live in the US and I'm not seeking an argument but if one way transmissions were not permitted by the FCC then how are remote beacons licensed? For that matter the thousands of unattended WSPR transmissions I hear from the US?
 

ka8ypy

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My understanding is that it's not legally possible. Now if that's not the case, then I feel real dumb. Reason is I could have put hands on several 3600 controllers as systems were being updated. It was discussed at length and none of us that were involved could see a way to legally pull if off within the FCC's regulations of ham radio. Not to mention that there are very few open repeater pairs available in this area AND the biggest issue was that the proprietary nature of the control channel requiring a motorola radio (or a Johnson radio BUILT by motorola, Type 2 trunking was just not gonna happen.
Proprietary equipment isn't a prohibiting issue in the US, just look at Pactor3 and the only equipment available is from the creator of pactor3.

So long as you share the control channel in a public space (even if you have to become a member to see it), a ham trunking system isn't against part 97.
 

Keith

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Proprietary equipment isn't a prohibiting issue in the US, just look at Pactor3 and the only equipment available is from the creator of pactor3.

So long as you share the control channel in a public space (even if you have to become a member to see it), a ham trunking system isn't against part 97.
OK, then why did we never do it? It wasn't like the equipment wasn't sitting there to be used. Could have been 3600 Type 2 or even Type 1 running on 6809's. How many of those got scrapped? And how many 800 quantars were there? Conversion to 900 wasn't impossible. Radio's might have been near impossible to fine though. Lots of stuff to work through. VHF could not have happened for obvious reasons. But UHF could have been done and the radios were available. If it were analog, even Spectra's would have supported that. Probably a bit late now. But it would have been an interesting project.
 

ka8ypy

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OK, then why did we never do it? It wasn't like the equipment wasn't sitting there to be used. Could have been 3600 Type 2 or even Type 1 running on 6809's. How many of those got scrapped? And how many 800 quantars were there? Conversion to 900 wasn't impossible. Radio's might have been near impossible to fine though. Lots of stuff to work through. VHF could not have happened for obvious reasons. But UHF could have been done and the radios were available. If it were analog, even Spectra's would have supported that. Probably a bit late now. But it would have been an interesting project.
Out there, not sure. Out here, as you stated in a previous comment, not enough frequency pairs, and getting a repeater owner to give up his site/pair to be replaced by better equipment and more coverage is damned near impossible. Most would rather link their repeaters as opposed to try and provide better coverage.
 
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Keith

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Yep I had a discussion with a ham club high-up today about that very thing. Told them there had been an offer of a backup repeater, duplexer and antenna installed on a tower to BACKUP their repeater (that I also gave them) and they declined. Told them that was fine and that offer of a year ago has been recended. The tower they are on is in bad shape and they need to be looking elsewhere for vertical real estate. But the idea of me hosting it was no longer an option. That being said, I still have somewhere between 4 and 6 MTR repeaters that will work for that application and if they have a problem, I will step in and do it. But they are NOT my biggest fans to begin with.
 

escomm

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Icom, Kenwood have gone slightly down hill on analog on some of the newer models.

The XPR6550 outperforms XTS, and XPR7550e is significantly better than XPR6550. They blow waris out of the water, on DSP and overall sound, and receive sensitivity.

The APX8000 and 8500 are extremely hot on analog and sound great even in crowded 800MHz spectrum with broadband noise


There must be some similarities between the Freon and Mototrbo e series radios in terms of the receive trickery. It seems the last bit of "range" is squeezed out with some fancy software RF AGC techniques rather than actual raw sensitivity.

And this even carries through to analog as well. The APX radios sound better, even on the bench with a signal generator with signals just above squelch than comparable levels injected into XTS the same amount above squelch, much smoother, less course, and more intelligible.


There is way more to Motorola's filtering, RF AGC, DSP software than just raw "sensitivity". There is some pretty advanved trickery going on.
Waris radios open at right about .1uV of signal. Never seen an XPR do that with less than .12uV. CP200s start opening around 0.08uV
 
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gMan1971

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Waris radios open at right about .1uV of signal. Never seen an XPR do that with less than .12uV. CP200s start opening around 0.08uV

Wouldn't that be considered squelch sensitivity?