Looking for reviews and/or impressions of Motorola's WAVE platform

[motoapx]

I'm in the process of purchasing and implementing a Capacity Plus single-site installation, and would like to know a bit more about WAVE from those that have used or implemented the platform. Most of the vendors I've been working with have been oddly cagey about offering much information about the platform beyond Motorola's usual brochures and "operations critical" marketing shine.

Is anyone here using the platform in their TRBO system, or has at least taken it for a detailed test drive? Anything you could share about hardware/software requirements, features (both useful and useless), reliability, and ballpark pricing would be a good start. Especially interested in understanding if you've found it to be good value for money, or if there are better alternatives out there that accomplish the same thing.

 

[ka5yth]

I've only played with a demo that was honestly a little underwhelming.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I'm in the process of purchasing and implementing a Capacity Plus single-site installation, and would like to know a bit more about WAVE from those that have used or implemented the platform. Most of the vendors I've been working with have been oddly cagey about offering much information about the platform beyond Motorola's usual brochures and "operations critical" marketing shine.

Is anyone here using the platform in their TRBO system, or has at least taken it for a detailed test drive? Anything you could share about hardware/software requirements, features (both useful and useless), reliability, and ballpark pricing would be a good start. Especially interested in understanding if you've found it to be good value for money, or if there are better alternatives out there that accomplish the same thing.

The WAVE is a product of Twisted Pair. it is a Radio over IP (RoIP) interface, that allows PTT using a smart phone or PC. There are numerous other vendors with very similar products. Are you looking at this because you want to enhance coverage? Is it to replace a dispatch console? If so, I would rethink the approach.

I had a client who I had recommended a MotoTRbo system with IPSC connectivity. The numbers of talkgroups were few and the area of coverage was very wide, thus the multi site IPSC. I had recommended a console solution from AVTEC that provided them a clean IPSC (or Capacity Plus)interface as well as telephone, interoperability etc.. They would also have seamless roaming by virtue of the IPSC. Shortly after my recommendation, the client was courted by Motorola and another vendor to buy into the RoIP and linking of all the remote sites with Mototrbo control stations and small base stations via analog interface to RoIP. Thus no seamless roaming and the performance problem of having double vocoding on the linked audio. I could not educate the client on the potential problems and risk so I politely resigned the project. I served as consultant and get no remuneration from the vendors so it is puzzling when a client decides to go a different way without thorough discussion. I did cover the RoIP in the alternatives report that showed the IPSC/AVTEC was both technically and financially better investment. The equipment list was certainly smaller!

"Most of the vendors I've been working with have been oddly cagey about offering much information about the platform beyond Motorola's usual brochures and "operations critical" marketing shine."

Yes this always has me frustrated. I find that Motorola will change there tune about a project and suddenly start pushing the latest thing, even when it has serious shortcomings or the technology is immature. "Oh yes today we need analog gateways, we will do an IPSC gateway in the future".

 

[Firebuff66]

I have also played with the demo unit and found it to be inferior to some of the free apps out there that do the same thing. If you ask me its a few years to late and Motorola will dump it soon when they see its old tech and no one wants it.
A co worker said CTI has been making something very inexpensive that will hook to a Turbo radio and give you the same options, I have not looked at the CTI so I have no personal knowledge of it.

 

[motoapx]

The WAVE is a product of Twisted Pair. it is a Radio over IP (RoIP) interface, that allows PTT using a smart phone or PC. There are numerous other vendors with very similar products. Are you looking at this because you want to enhance coverage? Is it to replace a dispatch console? If so, I would rethink the approach.

PTT from mobile device is the primary driver for looking into the platform. As far as my limited research has taken me, the other platforms I looked at for PTT from mobile were either incomplete on support for the major mobile OSes, or required the use of control stations to bridge the IP voice traffic to the repeater infrastructure. Both of those are scenarios I was hoping to avoid.

What I can't figure out based on your client story, is why would using the Motorola RoIP offering require moving away from IPSC? I would think WAVE would have tighter network integration than anything else out there, given the Motorola connection (even if it was an acquired product). Or was your client somehow sold on going to an RoIP stack + control stations *instead* of using IPSC entirely?

Back to the subject of products that compete with WAVE, I'd very much appreciative hearing about any and all comparable platforms so that I can continue my research. Emphasis on PTT from Android and iOS mobiles that doesn't need control stations to get mobile PTT comms over the air. I'm very much new to the TRBO application ecosystem as of now.

Yes this always has me frustrated. I find that Motorola will change there tune about a project and suddenly start pushing the latest thing, even when it has serious shortcomings or the technology is immature. "Oh yes today we need analog gateways, we will do an IPSC gateway in the future".

Yep... it's not lost on me that all of the brochures touting SmartPTT and TRBOnet disappeared from Motorola's site the moment they acquired Twisted Pair. They got quiet about that one *real* quick.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

The Motorola "Wave" did not have a port for IPSC. It requires RF control stations and gateways that are unnecessary with the IPSC. At least it did when this went down. And of course Motorola wanted to push their most expensive gateway until I pointed out Twisted Pair supported other gateways. It was truly a "fuster cluck" with me having to explain the minutia of the various technologies amongst blatant lies by vendors. So basically I looked at the terms of my expensive Errors and Omissions insurance policy and decided to write them a letter and move on.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

(snip)

Yep... it's not lost on me that all of the brochures touting SmartPTT and TRBOnet disappeared from Motorola's site the moment they acquired Twisted Pair. They got quiet about that one *real* quick.

The "dispatch console" support of "Wave" (and those others you mention) is rudimentary and because the client was quasi public safety oriented, it was very weak approach. So I recommended AVTEC Scout with redundant servers, phone circuit and headset integration because AVTEC had a working relationship with Motorola on IPSC and Capacity Plus. The SCOUT can also inter-operate at an analog level with other systems which SmartPTT and Trbonet cannot do easily.

Go into this with your eyes wide open and write a list of features and deal breakers as you go along. You might need to write a performance spec. With so many of these new solutions, they exist "in the cloud" with you investing not so much in hardware that you own and maintain, but with a "solution" or "service" that you pay monthly for. Then you need to be worrying about when that service is no longer supported. Will it be 7 years or 7 months?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I should ad that during the timeframe that this MotoTRBO project took place, Motorola had no competition domestically in DMR Tier 2. The clients requirements, FCC frequency plan (challenges) and locations of sites all presented a great opportunity for a MotoTRBO IPSC. That AVTEC had such a wonderful console was icing on the cake. Further, the clients officers could roam from site to site, building to building without switching a channel knob. Truly seamless roaming. In a project like this I present several alternatives and P25 was certainly one of them. The P25 was crazy expensive (way out of clients budget for sure!) and in some technical respects potentially unworkable. I also presented analog solution with discrete repeaters. Normally I am not in a position where I can recommend sole source procurement, but in this case I was confident we could and should. Usually, in the PS P25 and back in P16 trunking, these procurement's result in an RFP process with vendors responding to a Technical Spec and SOW.

Now there are more players in DMR tiers II and III so, the customer could potentially write a spec and choose the most compliant and best value vendor.

 

[gsxxr1300r]

Hold onto your wallet with regards to the licensing fees for the end users. It isn't cheap if you don't attempt to negotiate a decent size block of user licenses up front.

 

[nje431]

My 2 cents. We use both CTI's Radio Pro and Motorola's Wave 3000 on our Connect Plus carrier system. We use the Radio Pro for most consoles (we just sold an Avtec, still to be implemented), and both Radio Pro and Wave 3000 for cell phone apps.

For the cell phone apps, the main difference is that the Radio Pro acts as an extension of a single control station. The Wave 3000 has a direct connection and can support multiple talkgroups simultaneously. Personally, neither is very satisfying. The recieved audio quality on a smartphone is lacking, and the touchscreen PTT is iffy, at least on my Driod M it is.

Cost wise, the CTI is the best value, hands down. Motorola is very proud of their product and wants your firstborn to purchase, and requires your remaining progeny as an annual maintenance fee in perpetuity. We looked at Wave 5000 for the console interface ability, but its pricing was even more outrageous.

Cheers

 

[PSEhub]

Take a close look at the Trbonet Plus and SmartPTT Plus offerings, as well as their Enterprise versions.

They both have mobile and web apps.

The Plus and Enterprise are essentially the same software, sold through slightly different channels, with the Plus versions allowing direct IP connections to systems other than IPSC and a higher price tag. The Plus versions are sold out of the Moto price book, whereas the Enterprise version is sold either directly or by resellers of Neocom Software (Trbonet) or ElcomPlus (SmartPTT).

The SmartPTT "Plus" and Trbonet "Plus" options change the landscape quite a bit in terms of direct IP connection in the North America market. I believe Avtec used to be the only ADP partner in NA market to support the direct connection to anything above IPSC (Cap+, LCP, Connect+, Capmax).

I am more familiar with Trbonet, so I'm providing these links since I have them handy. SmartPTT is also a great offering.

Trbonet home page: http://trbonet.com/
Trbonet Mobile on Android Play Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trbonet.android&hl=en

Trbonet also has their Swift agent ROIP gateways, which are a very elegant solution if going with Trbonet Enterprise comes out cheaper than a similar Plus configuration, or if a direct IP connection is not possible/practical/desired.
http://trbonet.com/TRBOnet_Swift/TRBOnet_Swift_Agent_002.pdf

http://trbonet.com/TRBOnet_Swift/TRBOnet_Swift_Agent_001.pdf

The Swift Agents use dedicated control hardware and an option board instead of the small form factor Windows PCs that some other companies try to call "gateways". Using the option board provides exceptional audio quality and no USB reliability issues. The TRBO USB RNDIS interface is not perfect

 

[motoapx]

Take a close look at the Trbonet Plus and SmartPTT Plus offerings, as well as their Enterprise versions.

They both have mobile and web apps.

The Plus and Enterprise are essentially the same software, sold through slightly different channels, with the Plus versions allowing direct IP connections to systems other than IPSC and a higher price tag. The Plus versions are sold out of the Moto price book, whereas the Enterprise version is sold either directly or by resellers of Neocom Software (Trbonet) or ElcomPlus (SmartPTT).

The SmartPTT "Plus" and Trbonet "Plus" options change the landscape quite a bit in terms of direct IP connection in the North America market. I believe Avtec used to be the only ADP partner in NA market to support the direct connection to anything above IPSC (Cap+, LCP, Connect+, Capmax).

Thank you, this is really helpful. Am I correct in understanding that since the "Plus" versions are sold out of the Motorola price book, that I can expect most Motorola authorized vendors to be able to resell licenses for the software?

It is disappointing to see (at least based on my research) that Wave is still the only game in town if you want PTT-from-mobile without using control stations as a go-between. I'll have to take that information back to the system tenants and re-evaluate the need/want for the feature, because it's looking like acquiring Wave just for that feature is probably a non-starter based on price alone.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Thank you, this is really helpful. Am I correct in understanding that since the "Plus" versions are sold out of the Motorola price book, that I can expect most Motorola authorized vendors to be able to resell licenses for the software?

It is disappointing to see (at least based on my research) that Wave is still the only game in town if you want PTT-from-mobile without using control stations as a go-between. I'll have to take that information back to the system tenants and re-evaluate the need/want for the feature, because it's looking like acquiring Wave just for that feature is probably a non-starter based on price alone.

This is starting to get way confusing. You need to write up a list of required/desired features and specific interface requirements (no RF control/gateways) and submit to each of the vendors directly and get a written response.

In my dealings with TrboNet and Smart PTT both had a direct IPSC interface. Cap+/LCP may be another case, but you need them to answer directly in writing. I did and I received a quote with options for the software features. Motorola/Twisted Pair did not have the IPSC 18 -24 months ago, a gateway was required. It appears Wave 3000 now uses a server "no donor radios required". AVTEC had the full integration my client required for the IPSC and other features.

Don't let Motorola or a re-seller get in the midst of the discussion with the software vendor. There are way too many snake oil salesman in this business and Confusion, Fear Uncertainty and Doubt are their tools (they actually teach this!).

 

[motoapx]

This is starting to get way confusing. You need to write up a list of required/desired features and specific interface requirements (no RF control/gateways) and submit to each of the vendors directly and get a written response.

In my dealings with TrboNet and Smart PTT both had a direct IPSC interface. Cap+/LCP may be another case, but you need them to answer directly in writing. I did and I received a quote with options for the software features. Motorola/Twisted Pair did not have the IPSC 18 -24 months ago, a gateway was required. It appears Wave 3000 now uses a server "no donor radios required". AVTEC had the full integration my client required for the IPSC and other features.

Don't let Motorola or a re-seller get in the midst of the discussion with the software vendor. There are way too many snake oil salesman in this business and Confusion, Fear Uncertainty and Doubt are their tools (they actually teach this!).

Completely agree. I will follow up with the software vendors directly, but my understanding is that you need the Plus edition if you want Voice over IP for any topology other than IPSC. See the table at the bottom of this page:

http://smartptt.com/solutions/direct-ip-connection/

I'm going to try to confirm that this is still the case by inquiring with the vendors. I'll also be asking them to confirm or deny if you have to buy the Plus edition through the Motorola channels. Right now that looks to be the case, but I'll be confirming that as well.