MCS/MTS-XTL/XTS Compatible Encryption

[tsunami_australia]

I'm a total noob to the hw encryption side of Motorola but what I'm seeking is a common platform encryption that can be used in an MCS, MTS, XTL, XTS and have all four able to communicate with each other.

As far as I've been able to find, DES-XL is not an option with the Jedi but is the preferred now. I'm trying to steer away from scramble which has also been suggested because whilst we don't technically need encryption we need something that is going to take a lot of stuffing about for the average moron and I've heard of some scanners that are able to decode scramble with their eyes shut making it a pointless mechanism.

So ideas and part numbers please folks.

I'm looking at upgrading all the base radios from Radius to MCS2000's (preferably 100w running@25w) due to pricing and handhelds to a mix of MTS2000 and XTS3000 or 2500 for the odd few that need P25. This is a private group rather than business thus the need to keep costs down. Astro Saber/Spectra would be considered in opposition if the price is right for most of it but I believe the Spectra is missing a few features the MCS2000 has like user programmable scan and wideband coverage (400-480) though only a couple of mobile radios need the programmable scan and wideband coverage, the base's will only scan a few channels and be basically 470-480mhz.

Hope I haven't confused you all too much with what I'm looking for. TIA.

 

[Mars]

The only compatible encryption between the MTS/MCS and XTS/XTL line is the Motorola SecureNet, CVSD technology.

It uses cipher feedback. Compatible algorithms are DES-XL, DVP-XL or DVI-XL.

SecureNet uses about 4.5-5.0 KHz of bandwidth, sounds like crap, and has about 85-90% the range of an analog signal with the same signal strength.

You will need to outfit your MTS/MCS radios with modules containing the algorithm of your choice, and make sure the ASTRO radios also have the same algorithm(s) (modules) installed.

You will need a Key Variable Loader (KVL) capable of loading the same algorithm as the modules.

I recommend DES-XL as it's the most common algorithm available, due to mass-surplus of the market by the US government and other law enforcement-related equipment which has been taken out of service over the last decade+.

Be advised SecureNet is rather ancient and is a step backwards, but if it's what you're working with, then that's just life.

 

[tsunami_australia]

So there is a DES-XL for the MTS/MCS?? TBH I don't know why the others are getting paranoid about who hears what, I don't care if they are that bored that the find my conversation interesting somehow when they are not part of it. However I have a friend pushing for some better anonymity. Perhaps I will just get some scramblers for the GM300s and roll with that just not use scramble when mobile/portable.

 

[Mars]

The S in the MTS/MCS stands for secure. Yes, you can run oldschool securenet CVSD on the MTS/MCS products. This is fairly common knowledge.

I am a huge advocate of communications security. I have been encrypting my voice communications for more than a decade. I completely understand your desire to encrypt, and support it. Others within your group whom you trust can participate in your conversations, but nosy stalker hams/scannists who just want to cause you problems or gossip about you, do not need to know your business.

Only loser stalkers would criticize you for encrypting. They'll call you a criminal or suggest you're up to shady activities. Ignore them. It's no different than them wanting to pick up your telephone and listen into your conversations. They all have mental problems. Do what you have to do, and don't look back.

 

[tsunami_australia]

Sweet well I've just learnt something new and that explains I guess the difference in MT and MTS. TY.

Does anyone by chance know of some part numbers that would give me DES-XL on the Jedi?

 

[Mars]

Sweet well I've just learnt something new and that explains I guess the difference in MT and MTS. TY.

Does anyone by chance know of some part numbers that would give me DES-XL on the Jedi?

You want the NTN7280A. I may have two of these for sale; I'll post tomorrow sometime.

http://www.batlabs.com/encrypt.html

 

[Alpha]

Actually, I am 99.9% sure the "S" stood for "Systems", meaning trunking. That was what the "Systems Saber" had over the regular Saber radios, plus a bunch of other features. Wasn't the MT2000 capable of encryption? I don't remember for certain, but I think so...

 

[xpr8300]

While I never had a board in it, my mt2000 had a clear/secure switch and was conventional only

 

[d119]

While I never had a board in it, my mt2000 had a clear/secure switch and was conventional only

They all did. Though as I recall most of the MT 2000 controllers lacked the actual socket for the encryption module, though the solder pads were there.

 

[tsunami_australia]

Thanks Mars. Regretfully won't have the funds for a bit but I need to start cataloguing part numbers for the MCS2000, MTS2000, XTL5000 and XTS3000 ahead of time so I know what I'm up for. Shame my GM300 can't have encryption as it's been a rock solid base radio for some time.

 

[tsunami_australia]

Hey folks just a question, would the NTN7280A be capable of plain voice inversion scramble without encryption? Would be great if it did as I could slowly upgrade from scramble to encryption bit by bit then considering I need to find the dollars for 2x VHF HI MCS2000s with encryption boards and a UHF400 MCS2000 for the office to upgrade from the old GM300 and I'd prefer that all three of them and an extra UHF400 brick for the car be highpower units (current R in the car is 25w) for higher duty cycle as I still consider the MCS2000 a very good semi modern radio for non-P25. TBH I find them great for what I need.

I got some pricing for some scramble boards for the GM300s in the base and they wanted basically as much as a complete second hand Simoco SRM9000 with scramble inbuilt would cost just I'd rather slowly upgrade my Jedis rather than waste money on Simoco. Frustrating part of this is I use my radios primarily for volunteer monitoring of the emergency channels but can't beg for folks of a different country to donate spares because that just isn't the right thing to do.

 

[PRC148]

No the NTN7280A is CVSD modulation only.

I believe these will work but figuring out the binary button mapping would be...interesting.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Transcrypt-...omm_Device_Power_Supplies&hash=item1e79f67098

 

[tsunami_australia]

At $10 a pop if they will fit the MCS2000 they are definitely more what I'm looking for until I can afford to go fully DES-XL. Appreciate that. Also since I'm in the planning stages what is the difference in DES-XL and DES-OFB?

Also is there a software encryption available in P25? I saw something relating to what looked like software encryption in the CPS for my XTL5000 but when I enabled the option the radio went spastic. If there is some sort of software encryption that will beat a regular P25P1 scanner that would be fine for us as we don't need to worry about decryption beyond the average scanner since most of the people around here are to stupid to realise the difference between P25P1 and P25 the actual trunking protocol. They assume that the actual QPSK itself is P25 as a whole and fail to understand even the basics of how a trunking system functions. I don't know the nitty gritty in the protocols but understand about the frequency provisioning via talkgroup etc as that's basic stuff to me. The level of knowledge in our area is such that I'm the first to even really think of looking for computer decoding (DSD+) of QPSK for our conventional P25P1 stuff popping up around us. The rest went and wasted money ($300+) on digital scanners where my dinosaur $30 scanner and an old embedded pc box makes a great streaming scanner via my teamspeak server to my desktop and iphone .

As always, thanks for the help so far folks.

 

[Magnus]

If you are using all Motorola Astro25 or APX series equipment you can use software ADP encryption.

 

[tsunami_australia]

I've only got one XTL so far but I'm watching the prices and thinking that if they have software encryption then the cost of an MCS+encryption board is more than the price of an XTL5000 so I might as well rock with XTL/XTS gear (that said I'd love a K/S APX in the car to run with the Q XTL). So will look into that ADP encryption thanks.

 

[b16a2]

At $10 a pop if they will fit the MCS2000 they are definitely more what I'm looking for until I can afford to go fully DES-XL. Appreciate that. Also since I'm in the planning stages what is the difference in DES-XL and DES-OFB?

DES-XL is CVSD where DES-OFB is Output Feedback. DES-OFB is for Digital transmissions where DES/DES-XL is used with analogue although I have read it can work with digital.

Keep in mind DES-XL will force wideband bandwidth where DES-OFB will work in narrowband.

 

[Alpha]

DES and DES-XL can be used in digital mode or analog mode, but only wide in analog (~4kHz, actually). DES-OFB is strictly for P25 and will work in wide or narrow, but can also work with DES (-XL?) too, but that is somewhat non-standard usage. There have been several primers written on this subject. First read this:

http://www.batlabs.com/encrypt.html

Then get this, everything you wanted (and didn't want) to know about encryption:

http://www.akardam.net/moto/docs/mirrored/encryption.pdf