• If posting about a radio issue: Include the HOST, DSP and UCM/secure firmware versions, flashcode and CPS version you're using along with the operating system info. This is critical information.

See An Application For Simplex Repeaters?

Status

zap

Prolific Contributor
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
257
Does anyone see an application for simplex TDMA repeaters using the DMR Tier II standard as a base? For example, modified firmware which can be selected to allow a subscriber to receive on TS-1 and transmit on TS-2. And a modified mobile that allows for retransmission (think in parrot form but broken down in time slots) of what it hears on TS-2 out TS-1.

Seems to me it has the possibility of creating a field deployable repeater that requires no duplexer and only a single antenna, single mobile radio and a power source. Plus, the radio would only be capable of running ~50% cycle max.
 
OP
zap

zap

Prolific Contributor
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
257
Well, I was going through the latest Simoco Terminal FPP (Field Personality Programer) and found this.SRDS-Simoco.PNG

I need to send a few emails to get some more info on it but it's a cool feature.
 

radiotechs

Contributing Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Messages
57
I would be keen to see it,

Does anyone see an application for simplex TDMA repeaters using the DMR Tier II standard as a base? For example, modified firmware which can be selected to allow a subscriber to receive on TS-1 and transmit on TS-2. And a modified mobile that allows for retransmission (think in parrot form but broken down in time slots) of what it hears on TS-2 out TS-1.

Seems to me it has the possibility of creating a field deployable repeater that requires no duplexer and only a single antenna, single mobile radio and a power source. Plus, the radio would only be capable of running ~50% cycle max.


Would work well for the likes of the Police dog handlers we service, they could park their van and use their mobile as a repeater while out tracking with their portable
 
R

RFguy

Not Registered
Yes, Yes and Yes.

We often have the situation of a user needing greater range either on-site or wide area, but can't get a repeater pair. I've often thought a simplex repeater with TS1 in and TS2 out would be a great solution for certain users.
 

Rola

Contributing Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
50
I haven't tried this but I'm thinking of how a MOTOTRBO could be used as a simplex repeater subscriber.

Set 2 channels in the radio.

CH 1 TX
TX Freq / Slot 1 of the repeater
RX Freq = Random unused frequency.
Admit / In Call Criteria = Always.


CH 2 RX
RX Freq / Slot 2 of the repeater. Profile set to RX only.

Set up a scan list which includes the Slot 2 RX channel, set the "TX Designated Channel" to the TX Slot 1 Channel.
 
OP
zap

zap

Prolific Contributor
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
257
Don't know if the above would work without something to sync timing between the two radios an something to disconnect the receiver in the RX radio when the TX radio keys.

I think it would be interesting. Maybe I'll fire up this SDM630 I have and try it with the SDP660 and SDP650. I was also thinking it could be handy for adding that "extra hop" on a Tier II SCADA link.
 

phonebuff

Prolific Contributor
CS Forums $upporter
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Messages
678
Check with Raven electronics -- hey built something for the Marine industry that echos a transmission (record / playback).

---
 
OP
zap

zap

Prolific Contributor
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
257
Check with Raven electronics -- hey built something for the Marine industry that echos a transmission (record / playback).

---

Store and forward is nothing new. However, using TDMA the way cell carriers did around the turn of the century to provide like full duplex operation is new.

IE. Time slot 1 receives from the subscriber forwards via time slot 2 while the actual transmission is still taking place.
 

techman

Prolific Contributor
CS Forums $upporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
268
Store and forward is nothing new. However, using TDMA the way cell carriers did around the turn of the century to provide like full duplex operation is new.

IE. Time slot 1 receives from the subscriber forwards via time slot 2 while the actual transmission is still taking place.

Simoco has said they would support full duplex call from when the launched there product in tier 3 mode. I'm not sure if they have launched the feature but they were talking is was an option to patch into sip gateway and make calls. I don't think this has been included any any recent protocol update from DMR working group either

Currently the only working solution I have seen from any vendor is tx interrupt feature/method in a half duplex conversation into a sip pabx or AVL/console software which then connects to sip pabx.
 

Rola

Contributing Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
50
Don't know if the above would work without something to sync timing between the two radios an something to disconnect the receiver in the RX radio when the TX radio keys.

Wouldn't the timing source be which ever subscriber radio is transmitting at the time? All the simplex repeater is doing is storing and forwarding data 30ms later on the other time slot. Unlike Motorola's Dual Capacity, Direct Mode no radios on the channel are transmitting on either time slot on a ad hoc basis.
 

Rola

Contributing Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
50
Just read in the DMR spec's that the repeater will send out idle frames as a timing reference when its not in use.
 
OP
zap

zap

Prolific Contributor
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
257
Simoco has said they would support full duplex call from when the launched there product in tier 3 mode. I'm not sure if they have launched the feature but they were talking is was an option to patch into sip gateway and make calls. I don't think this has been included any any recent protocol update from DMR working group either

Currently the only working solution I have seen from any vendor is tx interrupt feature/method in a half duplex conversation into a sip pabx or AVL/console software which then connects to sip pabx.

They have it. Haven't seen it work yet (as no one has put one up locally yet). I'm sitting in on a meeting for a Tier 3 system that is going on in Decatur, TX with one of the Simoco North America guys on Tuesday. Don't know if it will be brought up though as the shop putting in the system intends to use Hytera subscribers (but they're officially a Tait dealer).
 

Oles

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2016
Messages
20
I am not sure why you called them simplex but here they are based on unmodified MotoTRBO radios and fast RF power-controlled switch.
https://goo.gl/photos/UkmhGU7nsr1eZfLA8
Any TRBO 2nd generation radios with DCDM mode can be programmed to work with them.
We have used them for two years but only recently started to manufacture them for sale.
I would like to hear your oppinions if it will be legal to sell these devices in your countries.
 

Astro Spectra

T¹ ÆS Ø - Moderator, CS Forums $upporter
Staff member
CS Forums $upporter
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
1,062
Oles this is interesting. Can you please post a block diagram or explain how the machine operates?

As for selling in the US, I would expect that you could sell the package as a kit without radios as the EMEA market radios have different approvals (CE/ETSI vs FCC) than the US market. For example you might use two DP4400 radios but in the US it would have the be two XPR7350. Also your AC mains wiring might not meet applicable rules for sale in the US, you might find it easier to remove the mains wiring or use a third-party 'wall-wart' designed for US 110VAC operation.
 

Oles

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2016
Messages
20
I do not see my previous message but here it is:
Rola has almost reproduce our configuration.
To use DCDM for repeating you need RX and TX radios in both in DCDM mode with the following settings:
DCDM Repeater Tx Radio:
DCDM, Slot2, Preferred Timing Leader
Rx Groups List <- None
Contact <- TG222
DCDM Repeater DM4600 Rx Radio:
DCDM, Slot1, Ineligible, Rx Only
Rx Groups List <- TG111
Contact <- None

Subscriber Unit’s Programming:

Selected Chan: Role=DCDM Tx: DCDM, Slot1, Eligible, ScanList1, Scan Auto Start,
Rx Groups List <- None (111*), Contact <- TG111
Channel Pool: Role=DCDM Rx: DCDM, Slot 2, Eligible, Rx Groups List <- TG222, Contact <- None
ScanList1<-Selected + ChanPool, Tx Designated Channel <- Selected

* Contact’s Talk Group ID s are always included into the Rx Group List even if it’s set to None

Single frequency DSDM repeater receives TG211 on uplink time slot 1 and transmit to TG222 on downlink time slot 2
Repeater RX radio is Ineligible to be the timing leader and has to be programmed to work in Rx only mode to avoid damage to electronic T/R switch
Repeater Tx radio is Preferred timing leader for all SU radios in it’s coverage area and its own Rx radio
Repeater Rx radio is switched off common antenna by repeater’s TX radio output RF power controlled T/R switch on PIN diodes
All SU are Eligible to be the timing leader to talk to each other directly on the repeater’s uplink time slot 1
SU transmit on the selected channel uplink time slot 1 and scan pool’s channel for downlink time slot 2
No channel switching is necessary to move from direct mode communication between SUs to repeater use as both channels' Call ID from the Contact Name are automatically added to the RX Group List on those channels by default.

No tricks, just proper radios programming. All /\/\ CSRs in Eu know about that for two years now.
 

Astro Spectra

T¹ ÆS Ø - Moderator, CS Forums $upporter
Staff member
CS Forums $upporter
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
1,062
Looks like you have put a lot of effort into developing the custom connections to the radios, looks very well done. I assumee that the audio connection between the radios is analog? If so how does the audio sound once it has been through the two times CODEC processing?
 

Oles

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2016
Messages
20
Thanks! It was not so difficult. In a year... ) And it is not over yet.
Sometimes the audio has some transcoding artifacts but in general it's very good.
This is a backup solution and the form-factor compensates everything.
 
Status