[split thread] MOTOTRBO audio issues/conspiracy

[triptolemus]

This thread was split from discussion in the 2.40a firmware release discussion.

Now, if we could get some sysadmins who understand TRBO audio the way Mars does, we'd be in fantastic shape.

[edited for relevance by Mars]

 

[Mars]

Now, if we could get some sysadmins who understand TRBO audio the way Mars does, we'd be in fantastic shape.

Thanks for the compliment.

I've received about a dozen emails from all kinds of entities since I released the audio enhancement modification in February. Some of these people are NHL teams (concessions, security, maintenace, operations), security companies, radio shops with hundreds of customers, etc. Nothing to laugh at. All of them have said the same thing: Default TRBO audio is crap. Especially how the audio is VERY LOUD on gen 1 radios during the first couple of seconds of RX. The end-users DO complain about the audio.

My audio enhancements have resolved issues for these and many others. I'm proud of the work I did and I know the enhancements have made a massive improvement in the TRBO audio experience.

I spoke with the MOTOTRBO Business Development Manager/North American Application Developer Lead back then, and followed-up in March and again last week. I have received no update at all as to any testing/consideration regarding the XML code I changed. The changes are plain as day. No head-scratching required. Change the default XML values in the codeplug XML and incorporate it into the next firmware release with my values.

Within the next week, I will be releasing a FREE codeplug patching utility which implements these audio enhancements in to the codeplug/XML. It would be nice if Motorola acknowledged the changes DO improve (massively) the TRBO audio experience.

 

[duggerd]

Within the next week, I will be releasing a FREE codeplug patching utility which implements these audio enhancements in to the codeplug/XML. It would be nice if Motorola acknowledged the changes DO improve (massively) the TRBO audio experience.

Thank you for this. It's sad when the Moto engineers are too scared to fix the default audio settings to something more reasonable (or mgmt is preventing them from changing it, also a great possibility, because Moto's history).

 

[PSEhub]

Within the next week, I will be releasing a FREE codeplug patching utility which implements these audio enhancements in to the codeplug/XML. It would be nice if Motorola acknowledged the changes DO improve (massively) the TRBO audio experience.

Motorola should be hanging their heads in shame for flat out neglecting MotoTrbo audio issues. Motorola has made a clear decision to not support customers that are having major unresolved audio issues, even some very large customers. From denying fully proven and documented customer audio issues, to not appropriately responding to dozens of open audio-related cases, the fact that it has come to this is nothing but embarrassing. If Motorola won't help people with equipment they have invested in, people will seek help from those who can (like Mars and groups of people who care).

 

[Mars]

You guys might think I'm nuts, but I believe one possibility is an internal conspiracy to keep the TRBO audio sounding like shit, so they can push their APX/P25 line. I'm serious.

Here's something you all need to know:

P25 Phase II audio codec: AMBE+2 half-rate
P25 Phase II codec bitrate: 2450 bps (per timeslot)
P25 Phase II forward error correction (FEC): 1150 bps (per timeslot)
P25 Phase II repeater air interface: Harmonized Differential Quadrature Phase Shift Keying (H-DQPSK)
P25 Phase II subscriber air interface: TDMA Harmonized Continuous Phase Modulation (H-CPM)


DMR audio codec: AMBE+2 half-rate
DMR codec bitrate: 2450 bps (per timeslot)
DMR forward error correction (FEC): 1150 bps (per timeslot)
DMR repeater air interface: C4FM
DMR subscriber air interface: TDMA C4FM

I have highlighted the important particulars. It is IMPOSSIBLE for these two products to sound so drastically different if they're using the same vocoder, bitrates and FEC. (Different FEC bandwidth between the two products would affect range and perceived-quality).

The problems I uncovered when I investigated/fixed the TRBO audio issues:

- Master audio gain is set way too loud/high
- AGC does not work at all
- This causes distortion and a horrible user experience.

My modifications cause TRBO audio to sound identical (very close anyway) to P25 Phase II.

We have one jerkoff on our system (Hi Albert) who HATED TRBO and constantly criticized the audio. This caused a massive internal fight in our club. Radios were sold, friendships were harmed. It was a P25 vs. DMR battle. My modifications improved the TRBO/DMR experience so drastically, this guy came back to our system after he heard the enhancements. He even installed another XPR8400 at a secondary site. He stopped complaining and joined our conversations. The ultimate problem-child was tamed. (He's even worse than me).

If I won him over with the audio improvements, that alone should sell Moto on the notion they REALLY need to take a look at the audio complaints and address them. They can use my mods (I handed everything over to the head dude, what more do they need?!?) or come up with their own. Either way, besides RF coverage,

AUDIO IS EVERYTHING.

 

[duggerd]

You guys might think I'm nuts, but I believe one possibility is an internal conspiracy to keep the TRBO audio sounding like shit, so they can push their APX/P25 line. I'm serious.

Well from a business standpoint, it would make sense. If you have two product lines that accomplish the same objective and one system is priced 10+ times the other, people are just going to buy the cheaper one...except if there is a problem with the cheaper system.

Audio quality, range, and features would be my top 3 requirements for selecting a system. Both lines have good range, and now more so with TRBO there are more advanced features showing up. However if the audio quality sucks that might just be enough for someone to go with the more expensive system.

There is also the fact that P25 / Type II systems have to be replaced for someone to adopt the DMR system which is plausible in new construction or a complete overhaul (Type II being replaced).

I do believe that these audio settings are selected for a reason - either this one you stated or another because they have had ample time to fix these settings and have refused to.

For the ASTRO25 line, I believe that Moto changed the presets for the audio, or put out a corrected video on how to select the right audio settings to use. Not in the TRBO case...it's like they wanted it to be like this.

I'm also sure that Moto didn't expect someone like you to "fix" this for them and are trying to figure out how to make sure most customers do not figure out that this was done on purpose.

 

[rc50won]

Within the next week, I will be releasing a FREE codeplug patching utility which implements these audio enhancements in to the codeplug/XML. It would be nice if Motorola acknowledged the changes DO improve (massively) the TRBO audio experience.

I have been using the Mars patch on a 7550 and SL300 for some time now. Nothing but excellent audio reports. I can switch betwen radios and no-one, and I mean no-one, knows. I have held off updateing firmware so I won't lose the patches but with this utility that will all change. Thanks MARS!
In my humble opinion you should have offered your PAID services (instead of free) to Motorola and maybe then they would have used your XML updates.

 

[Mars]

In my humble opinion you should have offered your PAID services (instead of free) to Motorola and maybe then they would have used your XML updates.

They wouldn't pay for anything. They won't even advertise here. We're the "bad hacking site" their employees lurk at. They use our forum for answers to questions and they download many of the PDF files we have available. I have no problem with that; the site is an excellent resource.

Fixing the audio wasn't about money. I put a fair bit of time in to it, and enough of the community threw $20 my way during the initial release. I appreciate that. Fixing the audio is/was the right thing to do. Canadian winters can be brutual. It was just a project to pass the time.

Once the patching tool is released and becomes widespread, I hope to see it used/recommended by the Moto-hams on DMR-MARC. The MARC system is in dire need of some leveled audio.

 

[slapshot0017]

It would be amazing if someone over there or here could fix the scanning issue too, but that's just a hope and a prayer... Mars I look forward to trying out this audio enhancement!

Motorola they have some great products, but there business practice's are just god awful...

 

[Mars]

Some things have changed this afternoon and I'm soon to be eating crow. I can't post further details right now, but Moto cares.

 

[slapshot0017]

Some things have changed this afternoon and I'm soon to be eating crow. I can't post further details right now, but Moto cares.

Ruh Roh???

 

[duggerd]

Ruh Roh???

The Motorola cares is a good sign...

The tone of that would be different if Motorola lawyers were in contact I suspect...

 

[Mars]

No lawyers. Nothing bad. The people responsible for making positive change are making positive change. I don't want to be the gossiper so I won't elaborate/share private exchanges. It's all good!

The codeplug fix tool will still be released.

 

[slapshot0017]

No lawyers. Nothing bad. The people responsible for making positive change are making positive change. I don't want to be the gossiper so I won't elaborate/share private exchanges. It's all good!

The codeplug fix tool will still be released.

Ok phew! See when you said you'd be eating crow I took that as a bad thing, but if its all good that's good to hear!

Hey Mars you think you could push through an issue i have been having with my radio for a while now... I've been in contact with moto, but it takes a little bit to get noticed... Unless by some miracle it was fixed in the latest firmware, but I have yet to test it...

 

[Mars]

Ok phew! See when you said you'd be eating crow I took that as a bad thing, but if its all good that's good to hear!

Hey Mars you think you could push through an issue i have been having with my radio for a while now... I've been in contact with moto, but it takes a little bit to get noticed... Unless by some miracle it was fixed in the latest firmware, but I have yet to test it...

Your best bet is to open a case (if you haven't already) on MOL, and take it up from there. You can also call the 1-800-422-4210 number and speak with TRBO tech support -- they are very competent.

I do not work for Motorola and have ZERO inside contact with anyone working there. My only contact was the global investigations manager, of whom the site had a great working-relationship with, but he has since been terminated as a cost-saving measure after being employed there for 20+ years.

 

[com501]

No lawyers. Nothing bad. The people responsible for making positive change are making positive change. I don't want to be the gossiper so I won't elaborate/share private exchanges. It's all good!

The codeplug fix tool will still be released.

od:

I foresee another release coming soon....

 

[slapshot0017]

Your best bet is to open a case (if you haven't already) on MOL, and take it up from there. You can also call the 1-800-422-4210 number and speak with TRBO tech support -- they are very competent.

I do not work for Motorola and have ZERO inside contact with anyone working there. My only contact was the global investigations manager, of whom the site had a great working-relationship with, but he has since been terminated as a cost-saving measure after being employed there for 20+ years.

Yea I figured, just a little humor. I have a case open with them and have been in contact with the repair guys and trbo guys. Like I said i'm testing and reading through the firmware release so we shall see what happens...

 

[Forts]

Thanks for banging the drum so hard on this Mars. I love the TRBO platform but the uneven audio levels can be absolutely maddening at times. Nice to see that Mother M might *finally* be listening.

 

[PSEhub]

As an example, I was on hold for the TRBO phone support group for 1 hour today. I had to get my phone charger. Going strictly off of average hold times compared to my average a couple years ago, it seems they have reduced the TRBO phone support group by at least 60%. I am positively surprised that any ears are still around (any Trbo-related group) to be open to this and perhaps its just out of the goodness of some individuals compassion, and not because Motorola has a receptive feedback structure in place.