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SYNTOR X 9000 SECURENET MODULES

RFI-EMI-GUY

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OK I am reaching out to the experts here:

I have these Securenet boards


HLN5003B1 (Full Featured?) (Loose part)
U1 0180752T75
TRN7036A DES-XL


HLN5262B (Installed in radio 3)
U? 0180777T74 FW
TRN6777B DVP HYBRID (yes I need to standardize on DES-XL Hybrid)

Do you know if these both "full featured" or "basic"? I certainly don't need OTAR or multikey, but may need to tell RSS what hardware is there - correct?

Are there conflicts with with using "full featured" and HAM 128 mode FW?

Does the RSS and Firmware allow a full featured board to be used as basic option?

Thanks
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

RFI-EMI-GUY

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The second board model number might be a HLN6262B. I am finding some references to that part number. I guess I will have to open the radio up and double check what I looked at.
 

radioman2013

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The boards had a square e-prom that determined basic, full featured, OTAR (it's a whole other story when I ordered an OTAR prom for a customer, M went nuts). That's probably the different model numbers when sold as an assembly.

Basic I beleive was a single key, full featured was maybe 8 keys? OTAR was a whole different animal with 16 keys, and shadow keys. Single key you could use either the MX-series keyloader, or a 3000 series AX model, the full and OTAR models need at least a BX or CX keyloader for slot assignment.

You can use any of the premium boards as a single key by loading just 1.

If you don't have all XL modules, you need to turn off the XL option, and RSS doesn't control the board as I remember, it just reports the model of the secure board on the s9600 bus.
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

RFI-EMI-GUY

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For the other board I have an HLN6262B (Not a HLN5262B as I previously said) . This is supposed to be a drop in replacement for the HLN5003B which is supposedly "full featured" per Mike B. The firmware on this board is actually labled year 1991 "55T74".

So I have Option Board FW of 0180752T75 and the other labeled "55T74"

I am getting some codeplugs and 128 channel FW for the radios and was told that 128 channel may only support basic Securenet. Which would be a bummer because of no -XL capability. Plus having to scrounge more boards. I am hoping the radio FW really does not care if the option is over equipped. Or maybe I can find one basic e-prom and clone it?

I am good on DES Keyloaders I have BX, CX and DX in my collection

I am 15 years behind the crowd on this project so most folks have forgotten more than I will ever learn on this. Thankfully an elite few still dabble in this radio.

Re OTAR and Motorola. There are currently some Saber Fascinator modules on ebay for crazy $1500 prices. Not sure how one would even load a key in those. Apparently they are now "declassified".
 

radioman2013

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I am not sure about the 128 mode firmware and not being able to use XL. I am a little rusty on the X9000, but I do have a bunch in all flavors including Low Band. I do remeber the FBI having issues with XL if not going through a repeater as in direct. I found the XL to be not worth all the extra infrastructure needed.
If the 128 mode firmware will only work with the Basic securenet board you can try and copy the Basic ee-prom you have.

I ended up with a few Sys Saber Fascinator modules from a bunch of radios I bought at auction. Pretty much useless, and I think the were comparable to AES 64 or 128 bit.
It's amazing what gets left in auction radios, I had the complete codeplug for KSC in Florida from a bunch I got from there. Including access numbers for daily Securenet key uploads (OTAR).
Though I did have quite a few that were stunned and that needed extra help to get working.
 

max2770

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Re OTAR and Motorola. There are currently some Saber Fascinator modules on ebay for crazy $1500 prices. Not sure how one would even load a key in those. Apparently they are now "declassified".

I ended up with a few Sys Saber Fascinator modules from a bunch of radios I bought at auction. Pretty much useless, and I think the were comparable to AES 64 or 128 bit.
It's amazing what gets left in auction radios, I had the complete codeplug for KSC in Florida from a bunch I got from there. Including access numbers for daily Securenet key uploads (OTAR).

And here's someone that's selling a radio with "NSA Type 1 encryption": eBay link
 

RadioSkaf

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Hmmm, I'm divided for this last one.

One part of my brain just want to say that this "Type1" XTS5k is "just" a basic AES-256 one (as you all already know, AES can be considered Type1 or Type3 depending on a lot of things...);
and not a radio with that special "UCM" with the battery under that blue rubber piece (Harris Sierra chip IIRC, which BTW can be flashed for differents algos, "real" type 1 and 3 included IIRC...)

On the other hand Q374 is written on the tag, and an old doc I have indicates this : "ADD Q629 for AES Encryption. Q159 REQUIRED. OTAR is NOT COMPATIBLE with TYPE 1 (Q374 or Q400)" So it may seems to be a "real" type 1 radio... (Why I write "real" ? Just read my following statement...)

IMHO using Type1 designation is misleading nowadays, Suite A and Suite B are more accurate. You just can't compare SAVILLE and AES; while both can be considered Type1 (under some circumstances for AES), Saville is Suite A and AES (Rijndael) is Suite B...


Any thoughts on the matter ? Do you think it's a real Type 1 (Sierra chip) XTS ? [In this case some black suits driving a sedan are probably looking around for a CCI (but the radio will basically self-destructs when the sierra chip's battery will be empty)]. Perhaps the Sierra chip is blank or zeroized and no one cares ?

Or do you think it's just a basic AES-256 XTS, but marked/considered Type1 SuiteB for a government contract (similar to the ISR2000/PRC-153 also equipped with AES) ? In this case, nobody (in Gov) really care, and the seller just want to, (I don't know how to say it in English but) boast/brag and"impress" whackers into buying his Super Secret Squirrel Radio ?

As a side note, I have some difficulties to understand why Military Crypto is considered "cool" and a bragging thing for whacker. Anyone who had to do that shi..stuff for a living knows how painful keyloading and auto-zeroising can be. Anyone who plays with a Crazy Ten just "for fun" is not in their right mind/is a masochist... (I never used a Crazy Ten, but its European Nato equivalent is not something what you could consider "fun", enough said)...

[Hoorah for OTAR and automated Centralised Crypto Management ! A prayer for the old guys who had to rekey electromechanical cipher stuff using this sh**t (http://www.jproc.ca/crypto/kyk28.html)]


To refocus a little bit on the topic (Sorry RFI-EMI-GUY, I didn't wanted to hijack your thread, but your topic always attract interesting discussions and "flow of thoughts")
There are currently some Saber Fascinator modules on ebay for crazy $1500 prices. Not sure how one would even load a key in those. Apparently they are now "declassified".
You would need keying material (punched tape, from your COMSEC custodian or controlling authority) that would be loaded into a SIB (Security Interface Box) via a KOI-18 (or via a KYK-13 already keyed with that KOI-18). The SIB (T5164BX ?) would be connected to your, let say Saber, with a TKN8517A cable... The procedure would be similar to what is described here : https://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/racal/ma4778/index.htm (except this one is still at 16kbps, luckily for our ears...)

Rince and repeat every week as the cryptoperiod is 7 days [As I said, Manual keyloading is NOT fun when you have several devices to do, every piece of gear is inhabitated by a poltergeist, and Hotel Juliet is every f*cking day !]

Actual infos on FASCINATOR are still very scarce, but at it was probably very similar, you could always search for FED-STD-1023 if you feel so inclined...
(modified VINSON at 12kbps instead of 16kbps...)

Just so you know, All informations provided here are in the PUBLIC domain and certainly declassified since the end of the Vietnam War, so no worries guys ! [Just a little disclaimer for those 3- (and 4 to 6 for us europeans) letters agencies who read without doubt this amazing forum] !
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

RFI-EMI-GUY

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It is indeed a "fascinating" subject.

I doubt many regular folks have been able to put any of the truly military grade crypto equipment into practical use because the parts are so rare and the key fill requirements are so obtuse.

The modern equipment have a volatile operating system requiring a hold up battery and once depleted another encryption key (unavailable) to restore operation.

Truly a government effort to keep such equipment out of the hands of the unwashed masses.
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Regarding this and my other (now closed) topic titled:

SYNTOR X9000 LOW BAND REDUX 2020​


With the help of Andy Brinkler, NC4AB, John Haserick. W1GPO, Mike Blenderman K7IC, Robert Meister WA1MIK and a host of others who have offered advice, I have the first of my three Low band X9000's up and running with 128 modes. The operation was uneventful which is always very good in my opinion!

I have much more ahead to do with this project including mobile antenna configurations to work out, but this was truly a breakthrough day seeing the first radio and control head responding to the upgrades and configuration.

I have learned a lot along the way and will be happy to share what I have learned if anyone else is on this journey.