UK Govt investigating Motorola for anti-competitive behaviour.

knickerlessparsons

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Hello UK Govt, please buy a wizzy new LTE network (ESN) from us to replace that boring old Airwave TETRA network you are using for all your blue light services. It will all be up and going before 2020, but just in case of any unforseen delays, we'll take over Airwave and manage it for you. What could possibly go wrong! After all it's not like Motorola would be likely to be seven years late getting the new system up and running.

"A Motorola Solutions spokesperson said: “We strongly believe that a market investigation is not warranted. The Airwave service delivers exceptional value for money for the UK taxpayer.”

She said that the company had cut its prices while investing in Airwave to keep it running, and that it “continues to function at the highest levels”.

“We reject the assertion that we have an incentive to delay the implementation of the ESN,” she said."





 

PSEhub

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They should've bought OpenSky
TETRA is actually what most OpenSky users should have bought to replace it, same 25KHz footprint and data capabilities, drop in replacement with same number of frequencies and repeaters.


With regard to actual topic, it seems Motorola is trying to create the same hybrid cashcow with FirstNet + LMR foreva when that isn't what they were contracted for.

Why sell people one or the other when you can sell both?

Why sell cloud-only services when you can sell "Hybrid Cloud" and "Edge Computing" (code words for selling the customer twice as much stuff)?

Technologically, it is right for them to have both, its just thats not what they agreed to.
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

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Motorola is very erratic as to their strategic planning. This is not the first time they bit off more than they could chew.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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TETRA is actually what most OpenSky users should have bought to replace it, same 25KHz footprint and data capabilities, drop in replacement with same number of frequencies and repeaters.


With regard to actual topic, it seems Motorola is trying to create the same hybrid cashcow with FirstNet + LMR foreva when that isn't what they were contracted for.

Why sell people one or the other when you can sell both?

Why sell cloud-only services when you can sell "Hybrid Cloud" and "Edge Computing" (code words for selling the customer twice as much stuff)?

Technologically, it is right for them to have both, its just thats not what they agreed to.
Sounds like this latest propaganda:

 
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syntrx

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TETRA is actually what most OpenSky users should have bought to replace it, same 25KHz footprint and data capabilities, drop in replacement with same number of frequencies and repeaters.

In case it wasn't clear, I was being facetious and I do not suggest for a moment that anyone should buy OpenSky.

I was drawing a connection between this fiasco and pretty much every OpenSky deployment which has ever been attempted.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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In case it wasn't clear, I was being facetious and I do not suggest for a moment that anyone should buy OpenSky.

I was drawing a connection between this fiasco and pretty much every OpenSky deployment which has ever been attempted.
There was a point in time where your choices were ASTRO, AEGIS or OpenSky. Of the three, OpenSky was the most forward thinking technology. It is really a shame it never got the R&D it deserved.

Can anyone remember its roots? Who actually developed it and the first deployment?
 

Radioguy7268

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I believe OpenSly was first sold to the State of Pennsylvania as an 800 MHz state wide area IP networked Digital techno-miracle in the late 90's. It was supposed to cost half of what the alternatives were - I believe the opening price was around $128 million for an unproven system that didn't even have subscriber or repeater units available until years after the initial award. At one point, the cost of the "cost saving" system had run over $800 million, and it still didn't work. M/A-Com became a football that was bounced around between Tyco, Harris, and a few others to avoid any semblance of corporate responsibility.

As a PA taxpayer, I considered it a boondoggle of the highest proportions. At a minimum, people should have lost their jobs, instead they were given a 20 year ride.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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I believe OpenSly was first sold to the State of Pennsylvania as an 800 MHz state wide area IP networked Digital techno-miracle in the late 90's. It was supposed to cost half of what the alternatives were - I believe the opening price was around $128 million for an unproven system that didn't even have subscriber or repeater units available until years after the initial award. At one point, the cost of the "cost saving" system had run over $800 million, and it still didn't work. M/A-Com became a football that was bounced around between Tyco, Harris, and a few others to avoid any semblance of corporate responsibility.

As a PA taxpayer, I considered it a boondoggle of the highest proportions. At a minimum, people should have lost their jobs, instead they were given a 20 year ride.
If I recall correctly, MA/COM first developed it for Fed X and it was primarily a mobile data service with a digital voice circuit. State of PA was the first public safety roll out once GE Ericcson COMNET Tyco etc bought the technology. I once got a visit to the NOC while it was being rolled out.
 

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I wish I understood more about why it was flawed for voice, I've been told it relied on lots of Unicast, however iDEN did also and still worked pretty darn well at scale.
 

RadioSkaf

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Off-Topic ON :
If I recall correctly, MA/COM first developed it for Fed X and it was primarily a mobile data service with a digital voice circuit.

You remember correctly. As the story goes, OpenSky was, I quote " introduced in 1999 as an expansion of the Monarch wireless voice and data system built for FedEx (on 900 Mhz). It was originally intended to handle voice on a limited basis for Fedex driver emergencies."
"There are three primary OpenSky protocols: FMP (Federal Express Mobile Protocol), OCP (OpenSky Communication Protocol), and OTP (OpenSky Trunking Protocol). FMP supports digital voice".

Here's a diagram about Monarch I found in one of my archives, you can see the FMP mode in the description :
There was a point in time where your choices were ASTRO, AEGIS or OpenSky. Of the three, OpenSky was the most forward thinking technology. It is really a shame it never got the R&D it deserved.

Can anyone remember its roots? Who actually developed it and the first deployment?

I agree that in the early 90's, OpenSky sounded as forward thinking as TETRA when compared to early ASTRO, back then. the basic scheme was even similar (4 slot TDMA in a 25kHz channel). Luckily for us Europeans, and unfortunately for you Americans, TETRA got the R&D that OpenSky did not...

[BTW, I'm pretty sure that with today tech, an hobbyist-level passive monitoring of OpenSky would be possible (assuming that in-the-clear OpenSky exists), given that TETRA can be passively monitored since half-a-decade now (I do know of OpenSky radio "provisioning" at booting/password, but we're speaking about passive CAI monitoring). Alas, the incentives are no longer here to work on monitoring this protocol...]

OFF-Topic OFF


Curious to see how things will evolve for the ESN in the UK, given that we French are also rolling out our new PPDR LTE network called RRF, with a full rollout stated for 2024...

I wish I understood more about why it was flawed for voice
I'm curious to know, too...
 

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syntrx

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Clear TETRA has always been monitorable if you had a TETRA service monitor ;)

TETRA uses circuit switched voice. You have a dedicated and guaranteed timeslot for a voice call for as long as you hold the PTT down (plus some configurable hangtime after), unless you get preempted by an emergency or higher GoS class call.

As is I understand it, OpenSky attempts to do VoIP and you're basically left to contend with other data traffic etc, with a predictably awful quality of service.

As a pure mobile data network with very occasional voice (like FedEx intended) I'm sure OpenSky is fantastic. As a trunked radio system it seems to be an absolute failure.
 

RadioSkaf

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Clear TETRA has always been monitorable if you had a TETRA service monitor ;)
Yup, Been here, done that ! :) (It is my understanding it was also possible to do the same with iDen ?)

As stated, I was also implying passive monitoring at an hobbyist-level for TETRA, that is to say with a 20$ dongle, not a 20k$ service monitor ;)
Sorry if I poorly worded my phrasing.

I have quite a good knowledge of how TETRA works, (being an ETSI Standard with a LOT of freely readable docs helps ^^) but absolutely zero knowledge on OpenSky, except for the basics, given it's proprietary and nonexistent in my part of the world ... Thanks for the explanations !

As is I understand it, OpenSky attempts to do VoIP and you're basically left to contend with other data traffic etc, with a predictably awful quality of service.
Doing Wireless VoIP in 1999 and the tech of that era, IMHO they were quite ambitious, maybe a bit too much ! And with no prioritization of speech circuits, that's no wonder it was awful for voice...

As a pure mobile data network with very occasional voice (like FedEx intended) I'm sure OpenSky is fantastic. As a trunked radio system it seems to be an absolute failure.
I agree, they pushed the boundary of a tech that wasn't designed for that, just to grab some market shares. Kinda like using a F-104 to do low altitude strafing, it just doesn't work, eh ?

[Sorry for the thread hijacking :whistle:]
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Off-Topic ON :


You remember correctly. As the story goes, OpenSky was, I quote " introduced in 1999 as an expansion of the Monarch wireless voice and data system built for FedEx (on 900 Mhz). It was originally intended to handle voice on a limited basis for Fedex driver emergencies."
"There are three primary OpenSky protocols: FMP (Federal Express Mobile Protocol), OCP (OpenSky Communication Protocol), and OTP (OpenSky Trunking Protocol). FMP supports digital voice".

Here's a diagram about Monarch I found in one of my archives, you can see the FMP mode in the description :


I agree that in the early 90's, OpenSky sounded as forward thinking as TETRA when compared to early ASTRO, back then. the basic scheme was even similar (4 slot TDMA in a 25kHz channel). Luckily for us Europeans, and unfortunately for you Americans, TETRA got the R&D that OpenSky did not...

[BTW, I'm pretty sure that with today tech, an hobbyist-level passive monitoring of OpenSky would be possible (assuming that in-the-clear OpenSky exists), given that TETRA can be passively monitored since half-a-decade now (I do know of OpenSky radio "provisioning" at booting/password, but we're speaking about passive CAI monitoring). Alas, the incentives are no longer here to work on monitoring this protocol...]

OFF-Topic OFF


Curious to see how things will evolve for the ESN in the UK, given that we French are also rolling out our new PPDR LTE network called RRF, with a full rollout stated for 2024...


I'm curious to know, too...
I recall that there was a goal to deploy 4 slot OpenSky. I don't know if that was realized. Also there was a significant penalty in the link budget by doing so.
 

RadioSkaf

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Still not wanting to hijack the thread (which is about Motorola and the ESN, and not about OpenSky) but I feel the need to answer for the sake of accuracy. maybe the Mods would want to move these last few posts to the appropriate section, or create another topic if needed (in the Lounge maybe ?)

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I was sure that the original "vanilla" OpenSky is GMSK / 4-Slot TDMA in 25 kHz at 19200 bps / AMBE ; and the "updated" OpenSky 2 is 2-Slot TDMA in 12.5 kHz at 9600 bps / AMBE+2.

Anybody here with more knowledge to chime in ?
 
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TRS

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Still not wanting to hijack the thread (which is about Motorola and the ESN, and not about OpenSky) but I feel the need to answer for the sake of accuracy. maybe the Mods would want to move these last few posts to the appropriate section, or create another topic if needed (in the Lounge maybe ?) Maybe I'm just dumb, but I was sure that the original "vanilla" OpenSky is GMSK / 4-Slot TDMA in 25 kHz at 19200 bps / AMBE ; and the "updated" OpenSky 2 is 2-Slot TDMA in 12.5 kHz at 9600 bps / AMBE+2. Anybody here with more knowledge to chime in ?

You are correct. I had it reversed. I always end up thinking that they added 4-slot later.